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Sir Richard Dalton Why does it take such guts to defy the lobbies that advocate the Israeli state's point of view? I mean, why does it take guts to advocate the positions of the peace camp within Israel, like Ehud Olmert? But all those voices from within Israel are too radical for European and British leaders to utter, to their shame. (...)
Sanam That's Sir Richard Dalton, former UK ambassador to Libya and Iran, on If You Were In Charge, with me, Sanam Naragian. Welcome, everyone. The show is brought to you by the Bijan Qisar Foundation and my organization, ICANN, where, for 20 years, we've been working with women peace builders on stopping wars and violence around the world. Each week, I talk with other doers and imaginers about the tough issues they tackle. And this week, the conversation that I was having, or I'm having, is with Sir Richard Dalton, the ambassador of the UK to Iran in the early 2000s, and one of the early architects of the process of negotiations that led to the 2015 JCPOA, the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action, which was the agreement that Iran signed in 2015 with the five permanent members of the Security Council, China, France, Russia, the UK and the US, plus Germany and the EU. So this was genuinely a comprehensive agreement between Iran and the world. And the essence of the agreement was two components. One is a strict control over Iran's nuclear program, limiting uranium enrichment, making sure that they had the heaviest inspections program from the IAEA, basically containing it within what would be civilian use or medical use, which was what the Iranians always said. Now, many people would have said that, of course, the Iranians were aspiring towards a nuclear weapon. The regime has consistently said that that's not what they wanted to develop. They did not want to develop a weapon, but the knowledge of having a weapon. So there's a certain nuance that goes there. And Iran has been and continues to be a signatory to the International Non-Proliferation Treaty, the NPT, unlike Israel, which is not a signatory. So the nuclear part of the JCPOA was containment. The other side of it was a sanctions relief and enabling Iran, Iranian business, Iranian companies and individuals, etc., to kind of come back into the global economic structures and financial structures. The sanctions relief didn't really happen, not from during Obama's time and certainly not later in during Trump's time. So from the Iranian side, there was a lot of grievance about this. And in 2016, 2017, once Trump came into power, the U.S. pulled out of the JCPOA. And again, Iran retained and maintained its presence and adherence. But at some point, it was very clear that the deal was dead. So Richard was kind of involved in the run-up to those issues. And in the conversation that I have with him, we talk about where we are now and what's happened with the war that we've just seen and the ceasefire and his views on the ceasefire and prospects for the future. What we've done is, as a slight change, I'm having a conversation with Soleh also up front before the interview with Sir Richard to just get her perspective because, as I said in the previous podcast episode, of course, this question of war on Iran is very, very personal for me. Those 12 days of bombing were horrific. It was neighborhoods that are very familiar to me and with family and friends there and so forth. And also, I wanted to hear what it's been like for Soleh because, again, she is obviously half Iranian but also grew up in America and, you know, as a younger generation trying to sort of make their way in the world, we are throwing so much at them and it's so unfair. And so, just to hear what it's like and how it must be feeling to trying to sort of live your life as an ordinary 24-year-old but having these issues also in the background and then subtly in the foreground of life. So, I'll have a conversation with her and then the interview with Sir Richard and then we'll come back again for Soleh's reactions and reflections on the season as a whole as well. I hope you enjoy it and hope to see you soon. If you do like the podcast, please share the links and follow us on Spotify and Apple and get in touch with us at info at icanpeacework.org if you have any ideas for the next season. I do hope to be back. And a quick thank you to Pearce and ADA Productions for all the support in producing this season as well. Thank you so much. (.....) Hey, Sos, how are you doing? How is Cambridge in the summer and what's it been like these last few weeks between parties on the one hand and war and God knows what else around the world? How's it been for you?
Soleh Hello. //S00: Hi.// Lovely introduction. Sorry, I'm just like, I don't even know how to frame it anymore.
Sanam Like, each week feels like, you know, being hit by a train each week. And as we sort of stand up, another train comes at us. It's bizarre. I mean, I guess I'll go one at a time. Yeah.
Soleh Cambridge is nice in the summer. It's got the outdoor pool. We've got, you know, it's very kind of picturesque, full of tourists. But what are you going to do? The last few weeks have been kind of strange because I've been working in lab and then also kind of preparing for the May ball. I was managing the decorations and all that. And it just, yeah, it was the kind of cognitive dissonance. And yeah, it was very odd, I think, for a few days. Um, like, I remember waking up to see the news of the U.S. strikes and then, but then my task for the day was painting a four-meter-long fake soup can to look like Andy Warhol's soup cans. And then it was just a bit like, what am I doing? Even more than usual because, you know, it'd be one thing if I was just continuing in lab, but then in this situation, I was like, not only am I, is this happening, but then I'm also preparing for, like, just what is basically just a huge party. Um, so it felt quite strange. (.)
Sanam Yeah, no, I, I can relate. I was sitting in a workshop on a report that's going to be coming out about mediation around the world. And it was, you know, kind of looking at the state of diplomacy and different angles and stuff. And I'm sitting in this room, you know, with people who work on these issues, but suddenly realizing, my God, for so many people in my field, it's either theoretical, academic, or they're kind of not really, they don't have skin in the game necessarily, right? And then there's some of us who do in different ways. And, and one of the, one of the people there, his, his family, and, you know, he lives in, in Qatar. So over coffee, all of a sudden the news came out that the Qatari airspace was closed. And, yeah, cognitive dissonance on so many levels, because, you know, this is, this is the kind of stuff we work on. And yet we're sitting there feeling completely helpless and hopeless. And it was just, it was just very strange. Yeah. Um, yeah.
Soleh How are you feeling on like a personal level with family there? Or?
Sanam It was, it was, uh, it was pretty hairy, um, because they didn't have any Western journalists there, the news wasn't comprehensive, but on social media, we could see it. And it was, you know, from the first night, they hit all of the neighborhoods of my childhood, right? So, I mean, actually just the other day, there was another sort of piece of camera footage from, um, the, the bomb that went off in Tajirish. Tajirish is like, you know, it's like a hundred meters from our, from our old house. It's, it's a bit like saying, you know, we lived in Georgetown. It's like, it's like saying somebody bombed Wisconsin Avenue, or, you know, you live in London and it's like somebody saying they targeted High Street Ken or, or, you know, Islington or, you know, these areas that, that people are, it's just part, it's so integral to, to your, to this identity of a city. So that was really horrible. And then we have elderly family there and, and kind of trying to, you know, at least hearing that they were safe and, and that they had left the tent, the city, that was good. And then I had, we had some friends there who were visiting parents from the States. And that was really, really tough. They just happened to be there visiting their, you know, elderly moms or parents. And it just, again, it was this reminder that these, that the wars today, it doesn't just over happen over there, right? It's like, oh, over there is here. People are connected. Everybody's living everywhere. Where, and then in, in our, you know, they call it vicarious trauma when you are, when your heart and sort of mind are with, or somewhere else. Like we dealt with this when the Afghan crisis was happening, that it's like, you know, intimately what is happening to an Afghan family or to your family in Iran, but then you're walking down the street here or going to the supermarket and everybody's having normal life. And it just, you know, I don't know what happens to our brains and souls when that, when that kind of thing, you know, where, where we store it. That, that's, that's what I'm like, where does this get processed? I don't know. But, but yeah, I can imagine for you as well, just between. Yeah.
Soleh Well, I feel like for me, and I was talking about this with, with Lydia too, where, you know, people, people kept asking, you know, oh, how are you doing? Like, how is everybody, all that. And like, it was kind of this odd thing where, like, I both appreciate it, but then also on some level, like, I know that I don't have it the worst, even if people aren't living there. We have some family there. We had friends who managed to get out, like all that. But then, so then it felt like, I don't know, not unfair, but I was like, no, put your, give your sympathy to, to somebody who has it worse. (.)
Sanam Yeah. And actually there was, you know, while all that was going on every night in Gaza, they were killing, you know, a hundred people, 70 people. It just, that was going, that was still persisting. And then my, my colleague in, in the West Bank, I mean, you know, they burned an entire village of Christian Palestinians, right? It's like, it's like, it's a, you know, so it's like these distraction tactics. It's the same kind of framing with, with this word that it's like everybody has to start, you know, we have said, well, of course I don't agree with the regime. Right. It's, and, and I, and it's really, it makes me so angry because I'm like, first of all, as Iranians, and I, and I think this is something that, you know, we instinctively feel, but it's not necessarily evident globally, obviously is, is that as Iranians, we've always made the distinction between state and society, state and country, state and nation even, right? And it's, um, because we've had, we've, you know, it's, it's an old, it's an old civilization and we've had lots of really bad states, you know, regimes, whatever you want to call them. But the affinity to the land and to the people and to the culture is much deeper. And, and so of course people are going to be angry and frustrated and, you know, you don't want somebody coming and bombing your country.
Soleh Well, I just don't understand why that's such a hard concept for people to get, because like, surely a lot of Americans, particularly Americans that we are, like, that we know and are friends with are feeling the same way. Like, you know, you can say that you are patriotic to the U.S. and that doesn't mean that you support everything that Trump is doing. Like, I don't, yeah. So I've never understood why that's so hard.
Sanam I always say that it's doubly difficult in the sense that if you live in a so-called democratic society, you know, in the West, where you get to elect your politicians, you know, however effective or flawed you may call the systems to be. But if, if you have a choice in who your leaders are, and if you have a choice in actually participating in that, you know, in governance, then you can see how state and society are closer together, right? There's a kind of a coming together. It's like, we voted for these people and this is, these are their policies or this is what's happening. We, we as a society have more responsibility. When you live in dictatorships, you don't have that choice because governance is done through force, right? And the irony is that when the West looks out to the rest of the world, yeah, they, they, they sort of see the, you know, Iranian state and Iran as a, as a society like through the lens of that state. Whereas when, when it's, when we put that same lens on, on the West, there's a tendency to say, well, no, no, no, but that's just, you know, that's just the politicians. It's not us. You know, this isn't, you know, our entire culture isn't like, so, so there's, there's kind of a double standards even there.
Soleh Which makes no sense because it should be the opposite. //S00: Exactly.// If it's going to be anyway, right? Yeah.
Sanam Yeah, exactly. So that, that's, that part, it's, it's, it's very frustrating to see that.
Soleh And also even on another level, like, even if they do all support, if everybody in Iran was gung-ho about the regime, does that mean that you can bomb them?
Sanam By law, no, right? Like, there is no such thing as preemptive, preemptive war. Like, that, that's, that's illegal. And it's all to distract from Gaza. Yeah. And it's all to distract from Gaza. Exactly. And, and the other thing that was, was frustrating to watch is that you have Iranian diaspora characters who were literally singing off the song sheet of the Iraq regime change war. You know, yes, go out. We're going to get rid of these guys and we're going to bring democracy to Iran. And again, I wrote about this back in 2019. There is no interest in, from the Israeli side, of having a legitimate democratic, strong Iranian state, because if you have a legitimate democratic, Korean state.
Soleh Yeah, I mean, why would there be? Yeah.
Sanam They, they would criticize them about Israel, about Palestine anyway, because, because what they're doing to Palestinians is so egregious, right? That, that's, that's the other thing that it's, it's, you see the, the distance between state and society across the region, across the world, actually, because, you know, so many, you know, you could see it on social media and stuff that, that the number of people who were saying, okay, actually siding with Iran, I saw some Iranian flags being waved or, you know, step.
Soleh Yeah. Some take it a little bit too far. And like, let's not, you know, I know that like the online, there's lots of jokes and stuff about like the Ayatollah and whatever. And I'm like, I get it, but let's not, let's, let's step back.
Sanam At the state level, there are no good guys, right? It's, it's like, you know, Netanyahu is awful. And, and what they're doing is, you know, these are war crimes and genocidal. The Iranian regime is awful in terms of, primarily in terms of what it's done to its own people. But, but in, in the region also, it's, it's, you know, it has obviously in terms of siding with Syria and stuff, it's with the Syrian regime and stuff. So, so yeah, there, there are no good guys. And, and then you kind of bring it to the, you kind of distill it. And it's like, it's three old men.
Soleh It's like, you know. (.)
Sanam So, so we're gonna, we're gonna listen to Richard Dalton, who was the British ambassador to Iran in the early 2000s. So it's a different time, but obviously the issues continue and, and there's a sort of connectivity between what, what his understanding of what he was doing there. And, and also what he says now is, as a retired diplomat, just being more frank about how he sees things. So let's listen in and then, and then I'll catch you at the end of it, just to see what you, what you think about that. Okay. Sounds good. (.......) So Richard, it's so lovely to have you on if you were in charge. You served in Iran as the UK ambassador going back 15, 20 years ago. Is that right?
Sir Richard Dalton From 2002 to 2006. (.)
Sanam Can I just ask you, you know, so many people have such strange ideas of what Iran is or was in the last, you know, has been in the last 40 years. When you went, was it the first time that you were going to Iran?
Sir Richard Dalton I'd been through as a tourist at the age of 18 in 1967. (..) So yes, there were a few changes.
Sanam What surprised you when you, when you arrived there about your perception of what it should be what it, you know, post Islamic revolution, Islamist revolution, what, what, what, what surprised you when you actually arrived and served in Iran? (.)
Sir Richard Dalton The rigidity of the Islamic ideology and the distrust of Britain that the weight of history and that ideology generated and the way in which those two things, plus the close British alliance with the United States, meant that it was incredibly difficult to do business with Iran. The suspicions of us, the fantastic stories that still had currency about supposed British influence. I'd been told about them and told what to expect, but all that did come as a shock when it came to getting down to trying to establish constructive relationships with the Iranian government.
Sanam What about from the societal sort of cultural standpoint? What was different in terms of your expectation?
Sir Richard Dalton I don't think anything surprised me. the vastness of the territory, the variety of the people with their different historic experiences, depending on the region they came from and the degree of their interaction with countries outside Iran. I was told that there wasn't a single family in the whole country that didn't have somebody who was living and working outside Iran. That may or may not be true, but the fact is there are strong influences of Iran upon that diaspora and a very strong influence on families inside Iran from that diaspora. So that was something which did surprise me, the degree to which there was this close connection between the inside and the outside.
Sanam And that's that's that's a really interesting point, because if we bring it now to what's been happening in the last few weeks, you know, so often when we think about or when the discourse around foreign policy occurs, it's as if they are over there and we are over here, you know, these sort of the peoples are different. But whether it's with Palestine or more recently with Iran, we are also here. I grew up in England. I arrived here when I was 11 years old and then I lived in America. So I'm like, it's not about loyalties to the state. It's about valuing peace for the people. And somehow that transnationalism or that human side of the story gets lost. Is that something that as a diplomat you've sort of is that a different way of thinking about it in the world of diplomacy as you see diasporas and people?
Sir Richard Dalton Well, your job is to make progress on different files that are open between Britain and Iran and to find ways in which we could work together on common regional problems. Of course, that was very much dominated by the invasion of Iraq and its consequences in my time. At present, neither Israel nor the United States are planning for the long term future of the region. They're responding to a short term imperative, which was prompted by Israel with the allegation that there was a plan to eliminate the state of Israel. And as expressed by Trump, that we took the bomb out of their hands. I mean, it's it's it's gross exaggeration on on both counts. But that is what mattered in the decisions to make war on Iran rather than any long term conception of what's best for Iranians or for the region. I don't see either side wanting to resume hostilities, but it can always happen as a result of miscalculation or as a result of the aggressive party. In this case, Israel and the United States deciding that there was a target which they wanted to deal with, which was too good for them to miss. And they were prepared to risk a reopening of hostilities and a re-bombardment as a consequence. So I think that is unlikely at the moment. After all, the drive behind the policymaking in Washington was to make this a one off, a successful bombardment, supplementing what Israel had done. And then the consequences playing themselves out after that, but without further American military involvement. And I think that remains policy in Washington. I can't be so confident that that remains policy in Tel Aviv. But for the moment, I don't see it in Israel's interests to resume fighting.
Sanam If we want to avoid war, then they have to start talking to somebody. And in terms of your involvement or your negotiations and dealings with Iranian officials, do you find that when you start the talks, actually there is, you know, some of the impressions that people have or some of the sort of this idea that they're ideological or irrational kind of is reduced because you realize that, no, these people are also rational based on their own interests. Because to me, when I look at it, their interest is to survive as a regime, that's, that's always their driving interest, whether it's soft diplomacy, soft power, or, or hard-nosed negotiations. How can that be perceived as being unlikely? That seems to be the only direction that we should be going in now. (..)
Sir Richard Dalton It's unlikely until somebody sketches out a potential basis for a solution. I mean, to go back to 2005 to 2012, the European position was strongly influenced by the American position, which was that Iran shouldn't have an enrichment capability. In those days, of course, the enrichment capability was embryonic, but the various proposals which the E3 came up with in 2005 to 2007 were all based on an economic bargain in return for severe restriction of what Iran calls its right to enrich. And reliance and reliance by Iran on overseas sources of fuel for power reactors enriched to 3.75%. And this was always anathema to the supreme leader and to the successive governments of Iran. And then, of course, in the intervening period between the failure of that approach and 2012, people came to realize that you could have a pragmatic solution in which Iran limited voluntarily its own activities in return for sanctions relief and that the IAEA would police that on behalf of the international community. And what produced the breakthrough in 2013, when America and its partners, Russia, China, Britain, France and Germany, began the breakthrough, which led to the JCPOA a couple of years later, was the realization that you could safely concede that Iran should have an enrichment capability on its own soil. And Iran came to realize that the economic pressures could be slackened as a result of a deal of that kind. So there was a political realization on both sides that negotiations could yield something positive for everybody. Now, there is no such realization on either side at present in Iran. And we know what the U.S. and Israeli position is that no one else has any right to a serious involvement in negotiations with Iran but them, and that there is only one objective for those talks. So, you know, if you ask me, have I got any hope of a breakthrough towards the kind of sane approach which you advocate is that I see no hope for it at present.
Sanam Which brings me to sort of one of the key questions that I often ask people is, well, if you were in charge right now, somebody said to you, you know, Sir Richard, you are the czar of this, what would you do?
Sir Richard Dalton There's a few preparatory remarks to make. One is that in the past, there were intense tensions between Russia and China and Western countries, and cooperation on the Iranian nuclear file continued. Russia played an absolutely crucial role in achieving the JCPOA bargain. They had, in 2012, taken their first aggressive action against Ukraine, and people said, surely this is going to torpedo Iranian nuclear diplomacy. And people like me said, no, because there is such a strong Russian interest in maintaining the non-proliferation regime, and in not having a nuclear-armed neighborhood on its southern borders any more than it has already in the shape of the Indian, Israeli, and Pakistani weapons. So we were proved right. Russia, as I said, was very helpful. And it can still be. Not only is there the Putin-Trump relationship, the desire of both of them to break out of the straitjacket in which Ukraine war has placed their relationship at present, and Iran is an area where they could work together. And similarly with China, in relations with the United States are fraught with intense difficulty. But China takes its position as a permanent member of the Security Council seriously and can cooperate with a broad multilateral effort. So I think if I was in charge, I don't think anybody has come up with a better means of reconciling United States, Israeli, Iranian, non-aligned countries, Russia, Chinese, all of the outside world's interests in this question, no better means than reverting to multilateral diplomacy. So we've been through derail periods, harmful periods, many times before, and particularly the period between 2007 and 2012. And assuming that war is avoided, and that's a big assumption, work needs to start on developing a potential diplomatic deal that addresses what the problem that now exists really is. Now, we don't really know what it is because we don't know the degree of damage. We don't know Iranian intentions. We know that the problem of getting international agreement is worse, both in Washington and in Tehran. But you have to start somewhere. And I think it will be a long-term effort. I mean, all the ideas are out there. They need to be developed in different ways. (.) And secondly, a coalition of countries who are interested in pursuing that route. You've got to start.
Sanam Two questions as part of this follow-up. One is, there was always this assumption, at least from what we'd seen around Russia, Iran support, say, for Syria, or Iran selling drones or giving drones to Russia for Ukraine, that there was this alliance there, right? And yet, when the bombing started in Iran, and everybody was wondering what the Russians are going to do, we heard Mr. Putin turn around and say, well, we have 3 million Russian speakers in Israel. Was that a surprise for you? Was that reaction a surprise? Or was that his way of trying to say, we're going to, you know, we're not going to weigh in here and we're just going to keep, you know, we're not going to help escalate the situation?
Sir Richard Dalton It wasn't a surprise at all. I mean, it's, it's a fact that Iran is strategically lonely and has been now for decades. It has a policy of seeking to develop constructive relationships everywhere except towards Israel. But it has largely failed. Where there are movements forward, it's very potentially significant, particularly with their immediate neighborhood. So, their efforts with Saudi Arabia and the UAE, for example, are vital. And in future, nuclear diplomacy must involve those countries and others in the Arabian Peninsula as well. But towards Russia and China, there are specific areas of cooperation which are going well. (.) And then there's a very large area of statement of intention, outline policies of, we shall work together on this, we shall develop jointly that. And the list is very long and it's impressive. But we know from experience that statements of intention like that very often yield meager results, other than in those areas like joint weapons production, which have been going well with Russia, that is. (.) So, it didn't surprise me that Russia, which has much at stake in its relationships elsewhere, didn't weigh in actively on the side of Iran during the war.
Sanam The question of Russia is one side, but as an Iranian-British citizen growing up here and then being in the States, to see in the protests regarding Gaza, people holding signs in support of, you know, don't bomb Iran from a public standpoint. That was quite extraordinary because clearly there is an element of public sympathy for the fact that the Israeli bombing of Iran was illegal and shouldn't have happened. But regarding Gaza and regarding Israel, both for our own soul, but also from a strategic standpoint in terms of enough is enough. And we should be consistent about how we should be consistent about how we should be consistent about how we deal with that problem, go by what the rule of law says. Could that be the starting point of what you're saying, you know, the longer-term strategic question of what role the UK could be playing as an entry point?
Soleh Gaza is a separate matter.
Sir Richard Dalton And it is shameful, the British government's position. They promised concrete action, if nothing, improved, and they've only succeeded in making themselves look ridiculous because things have got worse with scores of people being slaughtered at these aid reception points since that ringing statement of further concrete action was made by the three countries, including Britain, and yet zero. And we don't even get any overt statements about international law under the totally inadequate pretext that it's not for one country to make a determination. It's for international courts. Well, we've never been so reticent over Russia. So our double standard has been exposed appallingly.
Sanam I mean, the international court, the criminal court, and the international court of justice have issued rulings. So we have them, right?
Sir Richard Dalton We have them in the case of the International Criminal Court. And I believe that we would arrest anybody who came to our shores who was subject to a warrant by the International Criminal Court. I think that would happen. I don't think we would defy it in the way that certain countries in Europe have said that they would defy it. I'm not an expert in the proceedings of the International Court of Justice, but it is absurd that more than a year has passed since the finding that there was a potential case that genocide was being committed and the absence of any final determination on the South African case against Israel while the situation gets worse and worse and worse. I don't know what lies behind that. Yes, I mean, this is the moment at which the British government should recant and realize that the British public is not with it on Gaza, that the horrors being perpetrated by Israel, by the IDF, would not be tolerated if they were perpetrated by any other country. And to finally recognize that this so-called rule of international law, which our academics and our legal experts expound so faithfully as applying to everybody, including Israel, that that is important for our own future and our own security. standing on our heads as a government to allege the opposite, just because it is Israel, is a horrifying and a shameful position.
Sanam Now, in all of this, this is all deeply, deeply sort of political, strategic. You know, sometimes we say, well, if we had the resources to do something, you could have a solution. If you were Mr. Musk sat with your resources and you could do, you know, you had the billions and the political ear, is there something that could be done with, you know, in terms of the just financially enabling or creating a moment or is this purely political?
Sir Richard Dalton It's purely political. And so long as President Trump gives Israel a perpetual support and a perpetual pass in terms of all morality and legality, there is, sadly, very little that other governments can do other than advocate for a more sane and a more lawful and a more humane approach. And I have always regretted, since the time that I first took up senior posts in the British Diplomatic Service, how feeble we are in relation to the United States. We think we have such important interests that we can't cross them in any way. But to see the current Labour government doing the same as Tony Blair's Labour government did in 2002 and 2003 and putting the relationship with the United States above everything else is deeply deplorable. (..)
Sanam So, Richard, what gives you hope?
Sir Richard Dalton Nothing.
Sanam Oh, no, really? No, no, you...
Sir Richard Dalton No, no, I can't find... I tried to write a note for myself as to answer this to this question. At the moment, nothing. I can't see any break in the clouds. (..) So long as intention to destroy Gaza to the ultimate, genocide, in my view, rules in Tel Aviv, (..) It's impossible to conceive of that suffering coming to an end with the restoration of what existed before the 7th of October, 2023. I am more hopeful on the future of Western relations with Iran. (.) After all, the picture is going to be given a big shake at some point, and I suspect it will be very soon, with the departure from the scene of the 86-year-old supreme leader. I mean, if you're looking at what might happen then, dominant scenario in my mind is continuity in the short term, but potential for constructive change in the long term. Whoever lives in Beiti Rahbar is going to want to consolidate the power of the regime to rebuild where they can, to hang on to the economic relationships, oil export opportunities which make the whole system work, to fight off increasing sanctions, and so on and so forth. I mean, any government in Tehran has got central objectives, and among them, those. (.) And making the Iranian people happier with their government, and turning the, what, 10-20% who actually support the regime in their hearts to a bigger figure, (.) that's going to take second place to mere survival.
Sanam When you think about a generational issue, so your generation or the generation, you know, the generation that benefited from the post-World War II peace and security architecture, even the Cold War with all of its limitations, and then my, you know, it comes to the baby boomers, and it comes to my generation. I'm, you know, I was born in the 60s, and I look at my children's generation. They're 24, I've got twins. Do we have a right to be, like, do we have a responsibility to give them the rays of hope? Because we had it, you know, for us. Previous generations gave that to us.
Sir Richard Dalton I'm very, very, very aware of this, yes. And I bitterly regret that so many of the strands of activity I was engaged in, in a small way, have come to nothing. I mean, I wanted a world which would have a sane response to climate change. I wanted a world in which human development would be more even. And, of course, there have been some very big successes, the raising out of poverty of so many in the Third World and in China is testimony to that. The improved health of a great many people is testimony to that. But we don't have a secure world order. We don't have a secure, even a secure European order. And I worked in the immediate aftermath of the fall of communism in Europe on the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe. We turned it into the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe. And all that has been shredded as a result of the invasion of Ukraine by Russia and the disaster to change borders by force. So it's, we're not, my generation certainly hasn't handed on to your generation. And I fear your generation is not handing on to the 20-year-olds, a world with a great deal of hope in it. I mean, we know on climate, which is the worst threat of all, involves the greatest number of people and the most drastic negative consequences to the greatest number of people. We know from the work of David Attenborough and so many others that there are positive things that can be done still to mitigate the rise in temperature. But every day brings news that rather than grabbing those opportunities, people are sliding away from previous commitments because they cost money or they're electorally difficult or they don't comport with the short-term interests of the political party that's running that country at that time. Or the lobbyists are... Or the lobbyists are hard at work.
Sanam Yeah.
Sir Richard Dalton Or they're just sticking their heads in the sand like so many in America.
Sanam For me, the reason why I've been involved in my work is that I think, you know, climate, natural disaster, these kinds of issues where it's partially human and partially nature, we can't control all of it. There's a lot we can do, but we can't control all of it. War is entirely in our control. Like every bomb, every missile. And yet, as you say, you know, they'll give us the rhetoric that this can't be resolved militarily. But why does it have to take guts to say we're going to sit and talk it out and we're going to, you know, shout it? It doesn't matter. We'll, you know, we will sit and...
Sir Richard Dalton Why does it take such guts to defy the lobbies that advocate the Israeli state's point of view? I mean, why does it take guts to advocate the positions of the peace camp within Israel? Why does it take guts to advocate what former prime ministers of Israel, like Ehud Olmert, are saying? But all those voices from within Israel are too radical for European and British leaders to utter, to their shame. It's extraordinary.
Sanam I mean, why is it radical to say we don't want war?
Sir Richard Dalton I would break that down. I mean, of course, everybody says we don't want war. But what we aren't prepared to do is adopt, as a country, brave positions on the means necessary to impact a situation that would lead to there not being as many wars. (.) I mean, some wars, of course, are beyond any logical or external influence. I mean, look at the civil war in Sudan, where that came from, on the rivalry of two leaders generating parties that support each, generating concrete interests within those two parties, which can't be surrendered, so those parties think. And, of course, the international community has never developed, in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations, the means to intervene. (..) So it is bleak. The world outlook is bleak.
Sanam But as you say, why does it take guts to echo what Ehud Olmert is saying, basically? I mean, that's, you know, there are, the voices are out there. Thank you so much. Thank you for this conversation.
Sir Richard Dalton Keep working.
Sanam Time goes on. Time goes on. And we do all age. And, you know, yeah, even 86-year-olds at some point have to say goodbye to us. Keep at it. //S02: Thank you. You too. Thank you very much.// Thank you so much. (.) Okay, so that was Sir Richard Dalton, who was the former British ambassador to Iran in the early 2000s, who was still quite vocal about what's going on and his views. And he wrote an article actually saying that Israel isn't an ally of the UK, which is quite a bold statement. But listening to the conversation, yeah, how did you react?
Soleh His perspective was interesting, also pretty depressing, but the discussion about the kind of the JCPOA and then the current negotiations, which he talked about a bit, the Israeli strikes were like right before the last stage of that, right?
Sanam The current negotiations were, I think, largely indirect, meaning that they, you know, the Iranians were in Oman and it's like a quasi-shuttle diplomacy. You know, they may have met briefly to shake hands, but I don't think they were sitting opposite the table from each other quite yet. And then the, you know, the Americans, from what I understand, and I think from what Richard were, from what Sir Richard was saying, the Americans were taking a very maximalist position of, you know, no enrichment, um, even though, so according to all the reports, you know, the, the Iran had reached a level of 60% enrichment of uranium. And I think if you reach, you know, 90%, it's the beginning of being able to have weaponization. But, you know, they're still at 60%. The JCPOA had, I think, um, limited it at 3%, something like that, right? Yeah, for medical use or something. They, they say for, um, medical and for civilian use and energy. And a lot of Iranians will tell you, well, we haven't seen an iota of, of, you know, electricity coming from, from nuclear power. And so, so it's, it's convoluted, but, um, but it's, but the negotiations were ongoing. (.) And again, you know, ostensibly they were saying, well, we're making some progress or there was, you know, they wouldn't have been planning a third round if, if there was nothing to talk about, yeah, the, then the war started. The scary part to me is that the rules of engagement.
Soleh There are no rules is what it, yeah. (.)
Sanam There are no rules. Exactly. They, they, they have, you know, the idea that pre, you know, preemptive war is illegal and something should be done. Well, yeah, that's been.
Soleh Well, there was that clip of Netanyahu circulating that was like, Iran will have a missile in three months. and then it's from 2012. (.) So it's just clearly like any excuse. //S01: Oh yeah.//
Sanam Or, or go to the 1990s. Yeah. The 1990s. It's going to be in three weeks time. I mean, yeah, exactly. Exactly. So, so there, there, the idea that there are, you know, the rules, even if they were like a fig leaf are now completely gone and the shame is gone. I mean, in the past you could argue that there was a degree of shame and you, you know, if, if you're a country that kind of broke the rules, you would have some, and the international community would kind of respond in some, some way. That's all gone too. And, and it's scary to see how Europe and other, the European countries standing with Israel when Israel was continuing its violence in Gaza and, and, and the West Bank.
Soleh So the logic of like, though they're an ally of the West, so then we need to be there. Like it doesn't write, it's completely, it doesn't make any sense because you wouldn't let anybody else do this, but probably not even like if, if the UK just decided to bomb some other European country, the US wouldn't back them in that just because they're technically allies. I don't understand the logic. (.) It seems very self-fulfilling now.
Sanam Yeah. And it's, it's also, um, that at some point you have to stand and say, what is in my national, (.) in, in my nation's interest? If you isolate the region and you say, okay, there's, you know, you've got these power players, you've got Iran, you've got Israel, you've got, and, and I as the UK or I as America, the United States, I'm watching this. Is it in our nation's interest to be allied with a, with a government that is perpetrating genocide? Like that, that affects our, you know, soul.
Soleh But it seems like their answer is no. And because, but instead of that meaning that they're no longer allied with Israel, that just means that they deny the fact that Israel is committing the genocide. Right.
Sanam That, that, that's, yeah, exactly. So, so, so we will stand with our ally and pretend that they're not doing this, right?
Soleh Yeah.
Sanam Yeah. So, so of course we don't like genocide. Of course, that's a terrible thing, but these guys aren't. Yeah. It's, it's, that's an interesting framing, which is, which is exactly the kind of dystopian universe that we're all. What did you think of his comments towards the end around the question of hope? I mean, this is the first time we've had a guest on who was so blatantly hopeless about (.) the future.
Soleh What did you think of that? I think it's like, it's probably something that a lot of people are feeling, but don't want to admit so openly because it's a bit defeatist. Like you're accepting, it's as if you're accepting defeat if you, if you kind of think and talk like that, I think on some level.
Sanam When he, I was actually quite surprised as well, but as far as I'm not surprised, because you're absolutely right. It's, you know, it's basically how a lot of us are feeling on some level. And yet I also appreciated when, you know, when it was like, well, where are the guts to, why don't they have the guts to, to, to, to take a different course? Like, you know, British politicians or others.
Soleh Yeah.
Sanam And it's like, well, you could, you know, there's nothing stopping, you know, they, they may pay a political price.
Soleh This is just something that I'd like, don't understand just like on the whole that why does it take so much, like, why does it take so many guts to, to do that? It seems like a lot of people who are like, take just the New York mayor stuff, which has gone viral. (.) Why, they ask everybody, what country would you visit first? Why do they all say Israel except for Zoran who says, why would I be visiting any countries? I'm the mayor of New York. (.) Like, it just seems, it, not even in like a, I'm, I'm not even trying to like say something deep here. I'm just genuinely confused. (.) Why is it so hard? I just don't get it. What's stopping them?
Sanam Yeah. What is the cost for not saying it, right? Because what in the States, for example, um, if, you know, John Mearsheimer and Steve Waltz book talks about the, the, and, you know, and actually there's been a lot more on it, but the strategies of if you're a politician and, you know, you don't, you don't adhere to those print, to those policies from APAC, they will support your competitor, right? So, so there's a, the, the insidiousness of this stuff in American politics is, has been documented quite a lot. I think it's probably present here as well, but you're right. I mean, if, if, if they'd all stood up there and said China, it would be shocking, you know, or even if they'd said France, I mean, it would, it would have just been really, it's like, why, why would you want to go there? I mean, you're, as you say, you're the mayor of New York.
Soleh But I also mean, like, clearly, I mean, you know, maybe in some places, like some, if you just take the US, like some districts, that would be kind of something that, that would, that would be disqualifying or, or whatever, just depending on the constituency, especially with the tides kind of seeming to turn, at least in like popular, like all the polls about, do you actually support the, you know, war in Iran? And even most Republicans are like, no, because it's not like Afghanistan and Iraq are such distant memories.
Sanam For my generation, the Iraq war is like yesterday, right? And, and then to see it, the, the kind of the playbook being brought back and the same kind of nonsense being, being kind of repeated.
Soleh But people remember that all the polls, I mean, I guess if no troops are ever sent, then that's different. Like that's, that's what they're kind of banking on, right? Like victory without, victory from afar. Right. Yeah.
Sanam Yeah. Yeah. Victory from afar in a country with 90 million people and, and, you know, huge geographical terrain that is complicated and so forth.
Soleh And even most like hardcore Trump voters know that first of all, if anybody's being sent, it's probably them. Right. And then, and yeah, again, it's not like it's like Afghanistan was yesterday. It can give some hope that like, maybe people aren't as gullible and naive as like the politicians kind of want, want them to be in, in, in these things. I mean, that doesn't seem to be what Richard thinks, but.
Sanam When I think about it in terms of what gives me hope is, and again, it might sound naive, but it's, it's two things. One is again, watching the, the public reaction in Iran, right? So, so ironically, I mean, again, you know, this idea of nationhood, there was so much solidarity and coming together and a sense of, you know, protecting each other, but also wanting to protect the country. So that I think is important. It doesn't mean that they're not angry with the regime, right? It, there is, there is a huge level of frustration with, with where things are and, and, and so forth. And, and, and, and right now the regime is, is using this as a moment to, again, crack down on dissidents or, or people that they, you know, they claim to be dissidents or spies, which, which again, was predictable. And, and that's, maybe the only hope out of this is that, is that the sort of quack diaspora, you know, opposition leaders will.
Soleh Again, from what I see online and like sentiments and whatever of my, let's say my generation, though, I feel like you guys always want me to speak for my generation, but I can't. Um, the whole idea of these like preemptive strikes and, and all this kind of stuff, like people aren't, people aren't stupid. Like they, they can see what's going on. And I think on, on some level, maybe like the fact that this is so obvious and that the cover up, like from the UK and the US and whoever is also so obvious, like, this is what's going to be the kind of, I mean, you could hope that this is kind of what's going to be the thing that exposes it kind of for what it is. Um, which, you know, maybe, maybe if that was going to happen, it would have already happened. I don't know. But it just seems like another, another thing that people can point at and be like, how are we still justifying this?
Sanam And it's, and it's, and actually it's sort of just bringing its full circle back to, to the UK. Um, you know, what happened at Glastonbury, kneecap, and then you get all these other bands speaking out and you get the, you get the audience. I mean, it's not just the bands. Right. Pop villain and others. And then, and then the way that it's been sort of so overinflated that it's now across all the media. Right. And, and, and it's sort of, it's like.
Soleh And now they're launching an investigation and everyone's like, what do you need to investigate? It's all on film. Like it's all recorded.
Sanam You know, it, it just, it's, it's, it's as if by trying, it's like, you can't, you know, you may try and suppress the sentiment, right? They keep thinking that this, that the people will get bored or that the people will be distracted, you know, we'll forget about it. And it's like, no, we're not forgetting about it. It's, it just reminds me of the Israeli and Palestinian women that I was, um, that I interviewed before, right? That women of the sun and, and women wage peace and, and those grassroots movements, you know, um, the rabbi, Hanan Schlesinger and, and all these other guys that we've interviewed in, in this series who are doing the really important gutsy work, you know, you just think,
Soleh my God, if, if they can do it, you know, the politicians should be, should be listening and, and supporting them.
Sanam I'm just going to ask you one last question. Of the season we've had, um, so far, what, what was the highlight for you? Like, where have you, what, you know, what, what do you remember and you think we should have more of, or, you know?
Soleh I think that the conversations with Abir about Syria and then with the women of the sun, women wage peace were some of my favorites. And even though I think like growing up with, with you, I've definitely heard it all, not heard it all before, but like, you know, it's not like, it's always these conversations. conversations, we're always saying the same things, like, you know, beating the same drum. It's always nice to hear from these people who are still continuing this work in the face of like everything that we've talked about in this episode. Who knows how many people are listening? I'm sure somebody knows. Um, but it's nice to be able to like put that out online and, you know, hope that people can, can listen and especially people even like Richard, who, you know, are so kind of maybe realistic, let's say in quotes and like, but also hopeless. (.) I think it's, you know, it's probably would be good for him to hear from these people as well. What's been your favorite episode? (.)
Sanam You know, I, each of the conversations I really have fun doing. I mean, I, the poetry one was special just cause it's different, um, you know, and it was, it was a different way of trying to understand the world and, and bringing my different parts of parts of me together. But I agree that having the women who, um, I've, you know, I've, I've known for so long to give them the space to just be themselves and talk about their work and how they see their own countries. I, it, that was, that's a, that, it was just really lovely to, to have that space. Yeah. That, that was definitely very, very cool. Um, and then, and then, you know, talking to somebody like Jesse Stone was also really interesting cause it's, uh, you know, this idea of an American kayaker doctor who then goes and start something, but making it, um, not about her, but about the people there. So, so that, that was also a really nice one. Yeah. But it's, it's been an interesting season. I, I, I, we started off with Etche and the rise of authoritarianism and we ended with Sir Richard Dalton and, and, and kind of hopelessness of war. So I, I, I think we have to kind of.
Soleh Well, it's generally a very upbeat, um, podcast and really, yeah, upbeat topics.
Sanam Much more upbeat than others when it comes to contemporary, you know, global affairs.
Soleh So, yeah. I mean, we have some difficult, yeah, we're working with hard starting materials, let's say.
Sanam Yes, yeah, exactly, exactly. So, but, but I, I think, I think you're giving me good leads for, for what we should be doing next, um, next season. So I hope we will be back and, um, and with a dose of hope and a dose of inspiration and, (.) yeah, and just the practicality of what people actually get on with their life and do. Um, and yeah, and, and, and also I'm really, really glad that you like those ones because all those days that I came to school and picked you up late or forgot to pick you up, now you
Soleh know why. (.) So, yeah, no, you can, you know, you can forgive me, please. It's okay. One day you'll ask me to pick you up from somewhere and I'll be two hours late.
Sanam Two, I was never two hours late. So, I was, I do remember leaving you guys and it was raining once and I felt terrible and I was like 15 minutes late.
Soleh They kept you in the school principal's office or something. (..)
Sanam It's resilient. So it was good for you. (..) Okay. Okay. //S02: All right.// My bad. Okay. I'll talk to you soon and hope to see you soon. Um, let me know when you're coming. Okay. Okay. Oh, and you didn't tell us about your bacteria. I don't, any, any, any. No, don't ask. (..) Echinacea, echinacea, whatever her name is. It's, it's not her name. (..) Okay. Big hug. (.) Love you lots. Bye. Okay.
Soleh Love you too. Bye. (......)
Sanam My thanks to the Bijan Reisar Foundation, my own organization, ICANN, and Africa Digital Audio for making these podcasts possible. If you have ideas for topics or for people that I should invite and have a conversation with, please let me know at info at ICANNpeacework.org. (...) You can also follow the events on our newsletter, which is on the ICANN website, same address. I really hope that the conversations, the ideas, the solutions, the hope and the inspiration that you've heard in these conversations keep you going over the next week and that you join us again. So stay well and see you soon. And I hope to hear from you. Thank you. Bye-bye.