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Sanam Hi, everyone. This is Sanam Naraghi Anderlini on If You Were In Charge. We were expecting, and you were probably expecting, an episode this week, as usual, but it's been a slightly hairy 12 days. I don't really have the vocabulary yet to explain what it's been like from the first night that I heard that Israel had attacked Iran through to the notice that we heard originally from the U.S. saying that they would not intervene, and then two days later they did intervene, and then wondering what on earth was going to happen. And then yesterday afternoon, when Iran retaliated against the U.S. with six ballistic missiles to their air bases in Qatar, having told the Qataris and the Americans that they were doing so, so very performative machismo stuff, as far as I can see. But anyway, so this madness of what I think basically are, like, these crazy old evil men, I just don't, I don't think any of this is inevitable. And I get it, I find it so frustrating that just because one of them does something horrific, we assume that retaliation is needed because they have to save face. I'm like, this is absurd. You know, they're a bunch of old men. They're not going to be around to see the future that they are sowing right now for future generations. And chances are, all of them are in their own bunkers, safe and sound, while the public is actually facing the wrath and the impact of this madness. So, yeah, so that's my general feeling about it. But it's been awful on a personal note because I've dealt with wars for so long with so many of my colleagues and friends. And, you know, when you work with people who are living at the front lines of it, you see the human side. It doesn't become about the state or the government or the militias or, you know, opposition fighters and, you know, those who have the weapons. We know they have the weapons. We know that they're awful. But it really becomes about the people on the ground. And this past week, 12 days, on the one hand, obviously, to begin with, it was about family and friends checking on them to see where they were and making sure and hoping that they could leave Tehran to be in safety outside of the city, sharing with them what news we had, but also being very conscious that, you know, if you're sitting in the eye of the storm, there's not much you can do. There were horrific traffic jams leaving Tehran, people didn't have petrol, and so many, many people had to stay. And then we didn't have internet for a few days, which was also just heartbreaking because you just want to be able to stay in touch and see what's going on. There were sort of aspects that were very personal. One issue that it's kind of, it's like 45 years of trauma coming to the fore right from the first day was that they were dropping missiles in neighborhoods that were the geography of my childhood. So, literally, our street, our, you know, a wall that I, that I walked past for 11 years of my life, probably, and, and then Tadrish Bazaar, which was where we would, it was so much fun to go and buy fresh bread and fruit and vegetables and, and all sorts of other things. And, and, and they blew up a car bomb there on the second day and broke the water mains. It's really hot in Iran right now. It's the summer. It's really hot. We think water is the most precious thing there is. And to see this water just bursting out and, and flowing out of the streets, getting wasted, was horrific. That's not a military target. That's a civilian target, obviously. And then later, I discovered that one of my relatives has a business. It's, they, they, they do pastries and, and really lovely dried fruit and things like that. And, and the two of his workers had been in the bazaar when that happened and they passed away. (.) And, you know, then everything becomes slightly closer to home. And, and then you think, you know, pastry workers, a Pilates instructor, a poet, children. These are the victims of this war. And just yesterday, they announced that the Red Crescent building, which is the, the Red Crescent is the, is the Islamic version of the Red Cross. These are the men and women who are out there doing firefighting and rescuing others, that their entire building was hit. And, and that was horrific to see. And then a university was hit as well. And, um, another scientist was killed. Uh, in the early days, the Tehran Television and Radio Station, um, center building was hit. And that, again, had a personal dimension. Um, the building was, was quite iconic. And, um, it was designed in the 1970s by one of my uncles. It's hard to explain what that feels like. And then the other aspect of it, which I found really distressing, was that a lot of the bombings were happening around places like Isfahan and Natanz. But Isfahan, in particular, has the most extraordinary heritage and architectural sites and beautiful mosques and, and this extraordinary square. And I can't, it just goes on and on. Synagogues, churches, I mean, it's the entire area. There's, there's such rich cultural heritage and, and history. If you're exploding massive missiles in the area, the shockwaves and the effect that it has, um, could, can easily harm these kinds of sites as well. And it's so important for everybody to remember that heritage sites, it is illegal by law, to the extent that these days international law matters, and it should matter, that targeting or damaging heritage site, heritage sites is also illegal. So that was another issue that, that, that I was thinking about, and it, it reminded me of when the Taliban exploded the Bamiyan statues in Afghanistan, and when ISIS drove through the desert and destroyed Palmyra in, in Syria. These were non-state actors doing this. Cultural heritage is a universal good. It's for all of us. These are civilizational issues that have informed and, and shaped and enriched humanity everywhere. So that was a, that was a second kind of area that, you know, set of issues that bothered me. And then, and then, you know, I don't know, I'm sure everybody else felt the same, but when they said that the U.S. went in to target nuclear reactors, I was like, what on earth are we going to be dealing with now? But again, fingers crossed, they are saying that there was no real radiation leak or anything like that. So I hope that we have a week of calm and, and return to some sort of normal abnormality. You know, none of this is normal. And, and also that we revert to focusing on Gaza and on the West Bank and on what's happening on the periphery in Syria and Lebanon, because that bombing continues, that starvation of a people continues and has been, is really the prologue, the main story and the epilogue of this entire set of events that, that we've been witnessing all these years. So, yeah, I hope that things calm down and I hope that the eyes are back on Gaza. And, and, and on that note, I just wanted to also say I was really, really pleased to know and to, to announce that the Council of Europe yesterday awarded Women of the Sun, the Palestinian organization that was in the podcast that, that we did, won the Vigdis Prize. And the Vigdis Prize is a prize that was started last year in honor of the Icelandic president, the first female president, elected president of the world. First name is Vigdis. She's still alive, but retired. Obviously, she's 98 years old. And the prize is really cool because it honors the kind of work and issues that she dealt with. And, and this is a, this is an extraordinary woman who was doing climate and environmental work long before anybody was talking about it. She was the one who hosted Reagan and Gorbachev at the Reykjavik summits and get led us to, you know, kind of the, the, the de-escalation or basically the end of the Cold War. Nobody ever tells her story, but she must have been a pretty formidable force as she mediated, moderated, facilitated, hosted them and, you know, chatted with them and had tea with them and, and, and so forth to bring these two men closer to, to compromise. And so in honor of her, there is the, the Icelandic government and the Council of Europe issued this prize, the Vigdis prize. I was asked to be on the jury last year. And, and so women of the sun that somebody nominated, it was when they came up, it was, it was great because I was, I was able to cast my vote for them, obviously. But I was really pleased yesterday that they did win and, and, and that they get recognized. And it's important because in these days, when we have these old men roaring hate and, and try to polarize us, the people who have the courage and the ability and the strength to reach out and say, we will not be polarized. We will humanize, we will humanize, um, we will talk to each other and find common ground. Those are the superheroes of our time. And in the meantime, uh, next week, I promise that we will have a very, very cool guest to look at and talk about issues to do with Iran. It was, it was, it's been a topic that we've wanted to cover and, and I have an awesome guest to have that conversation with. Hope to see you soon and, um, and take care and, uh, here's that conversation for you.
Um, ladies, welcome to, if you're in charge, as you know, the podcast is really about talking to people who are at the front line of doing things, of finding the solutions to some of the world's biggest problems. And the two of you really sit at the nexus of one of the most significant, long-term, complicated, traumatic issues that, that we deal with in the world, which is the Israel-Palestinian conflict. I wanted to ask you first, how is it that you're able to talk to each other and work with each other? Because over the years, and I've been, you know, following the story for many years, but there was a period where Israelis and Palestinians worked a lot together. And then, um, after the second Intifada, there was a break about, in terms of Palestinian civil society saying, we don't want to work with Israelis because it's not on equal footing. There is a power dynamic that is disadvantageous to Palestinians. So it must be very hard to do the kind of work you're doing. And then, in the aftermath of October 7th, it must be even more complicated. So, tell me, what is life for the two of you in what you do, how you do it, and how you see each other? What's your relationship?
Marwa Hammad Okay, uh, I'm Arwa. I'm, uh, from Bethlehem City. (.) So, for me, like, I didn't imagine, actually, in a day that I will sit with Israeli on the same table. But, you know, when you live in a conflict zone, like, where we are living, and you, like, you know, see the suffering, see, you know, the resilience of the woman, we, as women, we are not there on the table. We are in the middle of the war, we are in the middle of the conflict, but nobody asks us, what's your opinion, or what do you think about that? So, being here today, and being, like, sitting here with the Israel on the same table, it's because we, as women, as a Palestinian woman, we need to raise our voice. There should be somebody to see, like, our daily life, our reality, what we face each day. You know, the stereotypes that we are facing as a woman, we know that it's not easy to sit with Israel on the same table, due to the normalization, due to, you know, the Palestinian look to the people who are sitting with the Israeli, as, you know, betraying the Palestinian people. But if not today, if not like we sit on this table, if we're not sharing, okay, a vision together, because for me, as a mother, I care about my children. I don't want, like, you know, to be murdered, or to be in prison, or to be injured. And I believe, like, each mother wants that. And this is how we come with the mother world, because, you know, this is what brings us all together, because we care about our communities, we care about our new generation, and we want them to live, you know, in dignity, safely. And this is the solution. The solution is, you know, to find dialogue. And as you said, Sanam, like, you know, after the Second Intifada, with the apartheid wall, the gap between the Palestinians and the Israelis become more and more and worse. So, the hatred, the revenge feelings is, you know, on the top. So, finding the dialogue, finding people like, you know, like Yael, like women who wish peace, that they want peace, they want, you know, Palestinians. Because for us, we don't meet except, you know, the soldiers or the settlers on the roads. We don't meet people like Yael or like others, you know, behind the wall. So, finding these solutions, finding, you know, the dialogue with respect, with empathy between us as women is very important. And it's a part of solution to build peace in our own community. So, that's why it's very important to have, like, Palestinian-to-Palestine programs and Palestinian-to-Israel programs. So, you have, you know, the bridge or come over the gap that we have on both sides.
Sanam Thank you, Marwa. Yael, how does it feel from where you sit in terms of your own community and how they react?
Yael Braudo-Bahat For us, I mean, to wage peace is very difficult. It was very difficult before October 7th. It's even more difficult now. Although now, no one can be indifferent to the conflict like it was before in Israeli society, where most Israelis before October 7th hadn't experienced the conflict on a daily basis and were just, you know, it's manageable. So, now everyone knows it's not manageable, but it's very difficult to persuade that peace is possible, that we have partners on the other side. We've built this partnership with Women of the Sun. It's been three years since our official public announcement that we are partners and working together in the launch of the Mother's Call. Before that, I've been active in Women Wage Peace. This is, for me, my first political home. The first time I felt that I can look around and not feel, you know, only despair and feel I have hope. Peace is possible. And I became an activist in Women Wage Peace over eight years ago, eight and a half years ago. And for us, the partnership with Women of the Sun, we didn't even know that we had this dream of having a sister movement, a Palestinian sister movement. And it happened. And for us, it was really, truly amazing. We feel that we provide a model showing that it is possible to talk. It is possible because we argue on many, many things, including the wording of the Mother's Call when we just, you know, when we drafted it over nine months, working together, arguing on each and every word. But we made it. We did it. And we know that it's possible and want to provide this model to other organizations, to other parts of Israel, the Israeli and Palestinian societies, and, of course, to our leaders. We were fortunate enough to have the chance to build the partnership and build our trust before October 7th. And when October 7th happened, for us, it was, you know, of course, we're continuing together. People asked me from time to time at the beginning, are you still in touch with the, you know, with those Women of the Sun? And I always say, of course, this is, this is the time that our voices and our partnership is mostly needed. We've been doing since October 7th. We, not only, we didn't stop working together, we intensified our joint work because we know, and we saw what happened in other countries in the past, in Northern Ireland, in Liberia, where women from both sides of the conflict stood together, united, and the men in peace, and they succeeded. And we take inspiration and hope, and we learn from those cases, so we can do it, you know, we can, we can contribute to the resolution of our conflict as well.
Sanam Thank you. It's the 25th anniversary of Resolution 1325. And we, at the time, back in 2000, were inspired by the work of Israeli and Palestinian women, so the generations before you. So this, you know, what, what seems to be a consistent feature of conflict around the world is that when these conflicts break out, there are certain women, not all women, but some women who emerge as peacemakers and peace builders and running to the problem. And it's almost like an invisible force, but you are there, and it's been a consistent issue in your context as well. Marwa, what, what is the daily work? You know, you've talked about, and Ayala mentioned the mother's call. What is the work that you do together, and what is the work that you do separately in your own communities? You know, when somebody says, when you say, I'm a peace builder, or, you know, we work together, what does that look like? What are the impacts that you're proud of?
Marwa Hammad Our work is rooted in the belief that women are not just a victim of the conflict, they are the powerful agents of the change. But since Palestinian programs, where we focus on the economic empowerment, because, you know, if you don't have, like, economic security, it will not, like, lead us to the peace political freedom. Because breaking economic dependency for the women will equal breaking the male dominance. Because, you know, for us, you know, reeling on the male-controlled structure, whether in the families, workplace, or politics, the dependence limits the woman's ability to make independent political choices or challenges, and advocate for their rights. So what we see is women without financial independence are often, like, excluded from decision-making in both households and society and on the negotiation table. Due to the situation, and, you know, the war that is still, like, going on, let's say, we have emergency aid for our groups in West Bank and in Gaza Strip. (.) And finally, we have some initiatives. And the other part of the project, unfortunately, we couldn't continue it, which is women building stories due to the cutoff of the USAID programs. So this is mainly what we are working on, and we have been awarded, and for this year, we started with the nomination for the Nobel Peace Prize. So, yeah, this is part of our work. And, yeah, you can't go.
Sanam Thank you. That's great. Yes. And I'm so happy that you have been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize. I can't think of a better sort of symbol of peace than the work that you're doing under the context, and specifically, you know, in Gaza. And, Marwa, I'll come back to you on that. Yeah, and what does the work, yeah, from your side, what does this work look like? This mother's call, like, yeah, what, you know, what do you do together? And, again, what's the effect of it in your own societies?
Yael Braudo-Bahat So, first of all, as Marwa said, we have several joint programs. The biggest one was the Women Building Bridges Project. Before that, before October 7th, we actually signed the contract with USAID on September 27th, 2023, just 10 days before October 7th. And despite the war, and in many regards, because of the war, we decided to continue with this project, to implement it. We knew how important and crucial it is, and we definitely received this feedback from our participants. One of them said that it was like a shot of hope every month, and this is what helped me during this difficult time. Before October 7th, we held a very big event on October 4th, just three days before. We marched together in Jerusalem, 1,500 women, hundreds of them coming from the West Bank to Jerusalem to march with us, the Israeli women, marching together, calling to change reality, calling to stop the bloodshed. We finished this day very hopeful in a rally near the Dead Sea, where we declared our partnership three years ago, telling about the mother's call, telling about our plans for the forthcoming year, and not knowing that just three days later, everything is going to change very tragically. One of the organizers of this event, one of the co-founders of Women Wage Peace, Vivian Silver, was murdered in her house in Kibbutz Berry on October 7th, leaving us all on both sides, both movements mourning. These are the things that we did together before and after October 7th. We also had the meetings in Israel with Rim, Rim Hadjajra, the leader of and founder, co-founder of Women of the Sun, coming to Israel seven times to talk to Israeli audiences, to tell them about Women of the Sun, about herself, about her life in the refugee camp as a peace builder, showing Israelis, hundreds and thousands of Israelis, that it's possible that there are partners on the other side. And as Marwa said, we are also separate movements, independent movements, so each working with each audience and communities, trying to fit exactly what each community needs. So in Israel, we now, since October 7th, we stand with the families of the hostages daily. We have a daily vigil since the beginning of the war, demanding the release of all hostages in a deal that ends the war. And, of course, promoting later long-term negotiations towards a long-term solution. We just launched a public campaign showing Israeli audiences that peace and the political way provides the security that we all deserve. Because when you say security in Israel, you mostly mean the military security. And we know, and we've just received this tragic proof over the past year and a half, that a military force cannot provide security. Security will be achieved by the political solution.
Sanam Marwa, October 7th, when you heard the news and saw what was going on, and your movement saw what had happened, First of all, what did it feel like from where you were sitting as Palestinians? What did it, what was your reaction? It was shock. (.)
Marwa Hammad Because, you know, before three days, we were, like, marching together, and now everything, you know, starts to change. You know, for us, maybe it's not like the start of the 7th of October. You know, this conflict has been, like, since 75 years. So, but since, you know, the 7th of October until now, it's not stopping. You know, many women from our, like, members have been killed during this war. We lost 38 women from members of Women of the Sun.
Sanam They were in Gaza, the members? //S02: Yeah.//
Marwa Hammad Yes. Yeah, we have a group of 500 women in Gaza Strip. During the last year, we supported them, like, you know, through the emergency aid, but it was hard, you know, to continue with it. So, we focused to have a tent to implement our programs and activities like trauma healing, education for the small children. And we graduated more than 200 children, and our beneficiary was more than 1,000 beneficiary during the last year. So, for us, you know, this is a way how we support it. For our partnership, you know, we were very happy and proud, like, we have the strength to continue after the 7th of October. Our director, Reem, called, sent on the group, and she asked them, okay, this is the time, this is a real test for us to continue or to stop our work. And we all agree that, okay, it's time, you know, to continue because, you know, we want to revise this pain to hope because we want to be there for our people. And on the same time, it's time, okay, to let the people open their eyes that, you know, as Alon has said, you know, this conflict isn't manageable anymore. We need to resolve it. We need to find a solution. And hopefully, yeah, we will achieve peace.
Sanam And we will end this. Amor, so in terms of your own Palestinian communities, you know, whether you're members in Gaza and what's happened, you know, and people in Gaza or in the West Bank, the fact that you decided to continue, and as you said, your director, Reem, reached out to Yael and said, we need to carry on. Has that been a challenge? Have people said to you, you guys are betraying us? Or has it changed since, you know, from 2023 to 2025 over these months? Have people's attitudes changed?
Marwa Hammad Yeah, let's say, yeah, it's changed. Because, you know, in the first, maybe, months of the war, they said, okay, yeah, we, like, okay, we come over. Israel, it's the first time that, okay, Israel get this slab from a Palestinian. So each time we are the one that is, you know, the victim. You know, actually, from the first day, I was saying, you know, the situation will not be good. Don't be happy for something, for this violence, because we will pay for it. See what, you know, violence brings. It only brings more violence. You know, having a long, one year and almost a half, so now people, you know, let's say, more educated, have more awareness about, you know, going to the war, because they pay the price of it. So I think most of the people now, they are with the peace building. Yeah, we have a fear to say, okay, yeah, I'm with the peace building. I can sit on the table with Israel. But if you think this is the only way, you know, to save our children, this is the only way to raise our voices as women, and this is the only way to find equitable solution, because if we are not on the table as the Palestinians, who will raise our voice? We will say what we need to say. So it's a need for us to be there.
Sanam Thank you. I think this is exactly, I think, as you say, the crux of it, that we see. It's the first time, I think, in recorded history of a war where children make up something like 40% of the victims, that civilians, and especially women, because I think it's important to count the men as well. But it is so devastating in terms of the civilian population. Those of us who are in the peace building world, from the beginning, we were saying that the bombs will have to stop, and at some point, the talking has to begin. Both of you, in terms of the political and military leadership in your own context, what is the appetite for talking to you, for bringing you in? Marwa, are you getting more traction now? Is the PA more willing to imagine an inclusive process in terms of Hamas? What do they say to you guys? And similarly, Yael, for you and Israel, how do they react? Marwa, do you want to go first?
Marwa Hammad For us, it's, you know, since the beginning, the women wasn't there. And even if we have, like, women in the political arena, they are mostly, like, the women in one of the political parties. So, for now, we don't have, like, any women that represents this part of our community. And unfortunately, there are no negotiation tables for the Palestinian Authority.
Yael Braudo-Bahat No one is talking to us. In the past two years, we've had, we've been devastated in Israel because of the current administration. constantly, and even during the war, infringing civil rights and democracy and peace. And it's really awful. We've been on the streets. The Israeli liberal camp was on the streets before October 7th for almost a year, for 40 weeks. So, so we don't feel that we have currently partners in the Israeli administration. We keep working with everyone who wants to talk to us and wants to promote and contribute to our efforts. Currently, it's mainly from the opposition. However, we do remain a non-partisan movement, not affiliated with any specific party or any specific side of the Israeli political map. And of course, if you ask anyone on the street, any Israeli, they would say women of the women wage peace are from the left side because, you know, there is peace in their name. But this is exactly what we're trying to change for, for more than, for more than 10 years now, that peace is for everyone is for the left and right and as well as security and the peace and security are intertwined. But it is very, very difficult to work with the current administration, hardly any women in decision-making positions. The rare women, the rare women, the few women that are there, just align with the masculine and the patriarchal values and actions. However, if for some reason, suddenly they will decide to promote peace, we will support, we will engage, we will be there. Whatever happens, we will continue to pursue peace.
Sanam If you were in charge, if you were the Europeans coming in, or if you were the Arab world right now, looking at the problem, what would you do in terms of addressing this question of an inclusive people-based process? What is it that you would want them to do? Or if you were the Europeans, or if you were the, you know, leading the Arab world, how would you look at it? Marwa, do you want to?
Marwa Hammad I think life, if I have the power, is, you know, to ensure that the women, especially us, that we are, like, in the conflict-affected regions, are in the center of the peace negotiation. And, you know, to have policy-making and post-conflict rebuilding, because it's not, like, about ending, you know, the conflict. It's about, you know, also rebuild it after that. I believe that women bring unique perspective to the conflict resolution, because we focus on community needs, on long-term solution, and about reconciliation. (.) And also, I would like to dismantle legal and political and economical structures that sustain inequality and conflict. We can't achieve peace when communities are braved on basic rights, like freedom of movement, education, and economic participation. So, highlighting those challenges that we face, and try to solve it, it's necessary for me, and it's a need.
Yael Braudo-Bahat Yeah. Your question reminded me what I say every time that I talk to international audience. First of all, don't give up on us. Know that there are, again, as I said before, there are thousands and tens of thousands of people working daily in our region to promote peace, and we know that it's possible. So, the world needs to know, because the world sees only fighting and war and blood, and it needs to know that there are many efforts to promote peace as well. So, please don't give up on us. If I was in charge, if I was a part of the international community, yes. So, we all know that eventually it's going to happen, peace is going to happen, negotiations are going to begin. And the only question that we ask even before October 7, definitely since, is how many lives will be lost until it begins. So, what I would have done, I would have just begun negotiations. It's possible. There is the framework that enables it. We have the partnership of, and we should have the partnership of the moderate Arab countries, and Europe, I would say also the U.S., although it's highly unpredictable currently, unfortunately. We need the world to, not to pressure or not to force anyone into assigning anything or doing anything, but to gather our leaders together and begin negotiations to facilitate, to encourage, to promote, to enable this, to enable this line of action. And, as Mao said, we need the women around the table. We need civil society around the table, because we know that without women, without civil society, the agreement that will be achieved, it will take much longer, if achieved at all. It will be less sustainable over time. So, if we were in charge, and I allow myself to speak on behalf of both of us now, we will just begin negotiations. That's it, and make sure that women and civil society are around the table.
Sanam Thank you. And it's interesting, because it's, you know, what we hear from women around the world in conflict zones, including from the Northern Irish, is that when the men were sitting at the table, they were still arguing the past. You know, what happened in 1600, and what happened in, you know, 1945, and so forth. Well, they're this land. Yeah, exactly, and it's going back, you know, 3000 years, whereas the women are saying, as you've repeatedly said, it's for our children, it's for the future. So this, I think this kind of, it sounds simple, but it's amazing how often peace negotiations really are the past informing the present to shape the future, as opposed to the future informing the present to then deal with the past, which is, you know, South Africans managed to do that, right? So that future vision, question to both of you, in terms of the absence of women, right, and this idea that Israeli women and Palestinian women have been, have pushed, they came up with solutions, and they kept getting pushed back. Why are the men so scared of having you there as independent, you know, peace actors? Like, what's the fear of having people like you sitting at the negotiations table, imagining the future?
Marwa Hammad I think they like investing in war more than investing in peace, because, you know, war means money for them, and so more, like more profits for them. The manufacturers, all the people that, you know, send the weapons to the conflict areas. So when you sit on the negotiation table, and you find the solution, when there is peace, there's no need for all these, you know, weapons, and, you know, military investments. And this is, and I think the men, they want to invest there more than they want to invest in, you know, in the prosperity and the health of the communities. Yes, for our children, for the future. But I think if we do this, they will lose a lot. So, this is my opinion. (.)
Sanam Is there a vested interest in losing things, Jael, from your side?
Yael Braudo-Bahat I think that it's a habit or a norm that is very difficult to tackle, and it's not only in our region, it's also, it's global-wide. There is a backlash all over the world regarding the status of women, the rights of women, their participation in the political arena. A growing patriarchal atmosphere here in Israel. But it's very difficult to promote the idea of women around the table when there is a demise in this regard in every social sphere that you can think of.
Sanam If you were a billionaire, if you had, you know, the money and the power that comes or the freedom that comes with the kind of billion dollars that we see individual men have in the world these days, what would you each do right now?
Yael Braudo-Bahat So, three things come into my mind. First of all, I realized a few months ago while talking to my cousin that while I am working daily with Marwa and with my Palestinian colleagues and sisters, and I know that it's possible, this is a part of my day-to-day routine and work. And this gives me hope, this gives me hope, this gives me life, this keeps me alive. I want everyone to have this experience, this knowledge that it's possible, you know, this proof. If I had so much money, first of all, I would say stop investing it in war and weapons, as Marwa said, and begin investing it in peace. But more concretely, to organize more and more and more encounters between Israelis and Palestinians to see that there are humans on the other side. One of the participants, one of the Palestinian participants in our recent Women Building Bridges program said this program enabled me to see that there are humans on the other side and that there are difficulties and there are, you know, you are painful and hurt like we are, and we need more human encounters like this. So this is one thing that I would invest in. The second thing would be to build the resilience of our camp, of our activists, because it is really, really exhausting to be peace builders. And some of our activists in Women Wedge Peace have been working daily in the movement without getting paid. Most of our activists are volunteers, the vast majority, I would say, are volunteers. And we need to provide support and build the resilience, because they've been working for 10 and a half years daily. We need them to be stronger. And also, lastly, we need to train more men and women from civil society to sit around the negotiations table, to build their skills, their knowledge, their confidence. Because the table doesn't need more generals and more politicians, it needs more people from the ground, from the communities, knowing what's needed. I think they have all the knowledge they need, they just don't know it. So building their confidence and providing more knowledge, more skills to sit around the table and take part in negotiations, and that's it, enrich an agreement.
Marwa Hammad For me, I will start investing to have, like, feminist economy, feminist economy as a free society. I don't want, like, the women to have, like, to earn wages only. I want them, like, to reshape the economic itself. Because, you know, the foundation of true political participation, because a woman who earns her own income is a woman who votes, who leads, who speaks without fear. So this is what I will focus in. And finally, yeah, the peace building, because this has been led, like, more and more women participation to change our community and to build peace in our own community.
Sanam For both of you, is the, not just the USAID funding cuts, but the fact that you were seeing European countries and others also reducing their overseas development assistance. Is that affecting you in your region right now? Are, what, you know, are you seeing other resources or local resources, you know, wealth coming, you know, philanthropy and, and, and other ways of supporting your work? You know, what, what's happening in terms of the financial side? Because, as you say, you can't, it's really unfair to assume that people are going to do this year in, year out, day in, day out, voluntarily. Somebody has to, you know, somebody has to pay for the groceries, right?
Marwa Hammad Yeah, I think that in our community, like, volunteering is very hard, because, you know, we have a very high unemployment rate, and due to the war, now the situation is very hard. For example, for a family, she will think, okay, it's better, like, to pay for, for bread, than, like, letting my son or my daughter to do volunteering. So, yeah, for us, also as an organization, the cutoff of the programs, and you know, to have hard guidelines to go through it, it's very hard. It's easy to have, like, like, a cross-border activities during, like, we can't go to Israel, because there are no permits. The Israeli, like, we can't meet except in Area C, and it's not, like, that safe for both of us. So, we are facing a lot of problems, and, you know, meeting through Zoom doesn't, like, the same as you meet people face-to-face.
Yael Braudo-Bahat I mean, the cutback, we know that many organizations are relying on such funding, and this cutback, and the Israeli prospective NGO law, it casts 80% tax on foreign governmental...
Sanam They're going to put an 80% tax... //S03: Yes.// ...on funding that comes to charities in Israel.
Yael Braudo-Bahat In Israel, from, yes, from foreign governments, from embassies, and then from USA, if it was still operating and so forth, from the EU. I know, we know that many organizations rely on such funding, even if women wage peace are not, and do not. And it's really scary, because private funding and private philanthropy, we need it more, and we'll have more competition over very scarce resources. And we know that the economic situation in the U.S. now, and I think globally, is unstable, so there is a reduction in this regard as well. So, yes, we don't know. I mean, many organizations are going to suffer from this, and many organizations, I am afraid, will be shut down because of this. And we need a vibrant liberal civil society in our region to succeed. So, it's really scary. We continue. We are proud of having our public, the Israeli public, supporting us through a crowdfunding campaign that we hold annually. And we have private donors that are with us since the beginning of the movement, and now also, really, it's very scary, the situation currently.
Sanam Thank you, and it's, you know, one of the things that we're seeing, again, both from the U.S. context, but internationally, is that this work, again, is so invisible in the public cultural sphere, right? That when you say peace building, people don't relate to it, right?
Yael Braudo-Bahat Exactly. It seems less urgent. Ironic. And I definitely understand, but we are also dying here.
Sanam And even, I mean, you know, people don't believe that civil society or civilians, ordinary people like you, and I mean, you are all extraordinary people, but essentially, we're talking about just non-political, non-military people can step in and have a say and make an impact in terms of peace building. And if you don't have peace, that the humanitarian crisis or the hunger will carry on, you know, the war keeps kind of creating new victims, right? But, and so we have to get to the source of it, which is stopping the war. And that's what you guys are trying to do. It's absolutely urgent. It's the most urgent thing that can possibly happen. And yet, there's kind of a lack of visibility for your work.
Yael Braudo-Bahat Yeah, and then we can, we'll be able to invest as a country, as countries, we will be able to invest in health, in welfare, in education, in everything that is needed now on the ground. And it's just being pushed aside because of security considerations. And I don't disregard the security threats. There are security threats, but the way to tackle them is through diplomacy and not through an ongoing and endless war.
Marwa Hammad So, what fundamentally gives you hope? What gives me hope? Okay. (.) There is no choice, like, to have no hope. We are the hope. So, we are the one who, like, you know, we are the caregivers of, you know, our families, our communities. Each woman is a hope for me because, you know, carrying on and continuing is, you know, something not everybody can do it. I will give you, like, a small story. One of our participants, she's from Gaza, and she's part of the peace building programs. She lost 30 members of her family. One of them is her brother. And she still continues in our peace building program. She still meets Israeli because she told us, okay, I lost enough of my beloved ones. I don't want to lose more. So, this is what gives me hope that, okay, we can't keep looking to the past. We should look to the future. We should, like, serve the people that we have still in our lives. And this is what we are doing. (.) Thank you, and, yeah, last word for you.
Sanam What gives you hope?
Yael Braudo-Bahat First of all, my Palestinian sisters give me hope because I know how hard it is for them to be peace builders and to be in touch with Israelis. It's much easier for me to be in touch with Mawa than the other way around. And every time I see them, every time I work with them, I get hope. I know it's possible. And looking at what happened in the world in the past where women succeeded in promoting peace, in promoting reconciliation, you, yourselves, and I've talked to probably many peace builders who succeeded, that we can do it as well. So, and we know that in very, very desperate times, good things happened. We say that, you know, revolutions happen in desperate times. So, we're doing the revolution. We give ourselves hope all the time.
Sanam Thank you. Thank you both very, very much for this conversation. Really an honor and a pleasure to speak to you. And I hope to join you whenever it's possible, both in Palestine and in Israel. (.....) My thanks to the Bijan Reisar Foundation, my own organization, ICANN, and Africa Digital Audio for making these podcasts possible. If you have ideas for topics or for people that I should invite and have a conversation with, please let me know at info at ICANNPeacework.org. Info at ICANNPeacework.org. You can also follow the events on our newsletter, which is on the ICANN website, same address. I really hope that the conversations, the ideas, the solutions, the hope, and the inspiration that you've heard in these conversations keep you going over the next week, and that you join us again. So, stay well, and see you soon, and I hope to hear from you. Thank you. Bye-bye.