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Ken Sweeney (podcast promo) Hi, I'm Ken Sweeney. This is The Comfortable Spot. The Comfortable Spot is a series of conversations with interesting people from different walks of life. You may not know all of them, but you might find them intriguing, so I hope you are sitting comfortably and happy to stay with us. You can find The Comfortable Spot on Google, Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your favourite podcasts. (16 seconds pause)
Christine van Ruymbeke Give my accent. I am a master. (.) I am a master. I am a master. (...) I am drunk, and you are mad. (.) Who will take us back home? I told you a hundred times, drink less, just two or three cups. So that's the beginning of a long poem. (..)
Sanam That's Christine von Reumbecker, the Ali Reza and Mohamed Sudovar Professor of Persian Literature and Culture, co-chair of the Faculty of Asia and Middle East Studies, and head of the Middle Eastern Department at Cambridge University. Welcome, everyone. This is If You Were In Charge with me, Sanam Naraghi Anderlini. The show is brought to you by the Bijan Gheysar Foundation and my organization, ICANN, where for 20 years, we've been working with women peace builders on stopping wars and violence around the world. Each week, I talk with other doers and imaginers about the tough issues they tackle, and I ask them what would they do if they were in charge. This week, I take a slightly different tack. Given the events in the world and the number of people who are telling me that they're either in despair or depressed about events in the world, or simply they've just, you know, stopped listening to the news, I figured we need a little bit of soul food and a little bit of space to reflect where we are in terms of human history and our own lives and the past that existed before us. My own go-to has always been fiction and poetry, because I see so often that when we read the stories of the past or the poetry of the past, it really speaks to us in the present. And in particular, I loved the poetry of Yates, which I studied from when I was doing my A-level years. But growing up, literature and poetry of every ilk was really part and parcel of our lives. And I remember as a child, my father would recite Shakespeare's plays and sonnets on our drive to school every day. And even though I didn't understand it, it seemed to sort of embed itself in my heart and my mind. So when I, later on in England, when we were reading Macbeth and Hamlet and so forth, it was really as if I was back in the car with my dad, age seven, eight, nine. So very, very personal. I've also tried to share this love of poetry and literature with my kids over the years from when they were very young. Both the traditional literature that we have in, you know, children's stories of the West, but also when I traveled, I would bring back the fables and folklore of other countries. And we had some pretty funny moments learning about Icelandic trolls and so forth. But it's really embedded in the way I think about life that we need to look at story and verse as a way of understanding our situation. Persian poetry in particular holds a special place because even though my own Farsi isn't good enough right now to be able to read the poetry and enter into the language and the richness in the way I'd like to, (.) It's really a part and parcel, again, of our cultural DNA. Poetry is games people play. It's part of the wisdom. It's part of the way that very often people just communicate with each other in everyday terms and idioms that they use. And it continues in Iran as we speak. And for me, as I've grown up and in my adult life, what I've realized is that as I've tried to grapple and understand complex issues or nuances or gray zones in life and in dealing with people, anytime I've asked one of my elders, uncles or aunts, you know, do we have a story about this or is there some poetry about this? Somebody will pull out a line of Hafez or a line of Saadi and it's amazing how a line of poetry from the 12th century is relevant to today in the West. (..) So I think it's important for us to understand these connections. And I wanted Sole also to understand this and for her to also reflect on how this relates to her as a young person, but also as somebody coming into the world, in the world of science. So that's a conversation that we will have afterwards. But first, please join me in my conversation with Christian von Röimbeke, one of the world's leading authorities on Persian literature and poetry and culture and her ability to look at it from the lens of both the literature that Persia was producing, the consumption or the absorption of it here in the West today, and how it relates to the world around us and the stories and the news that we have. So I hope you enjoy this conversation and see you on the other side. Thank you. (.......) Christine, it's so wonderful to have you on if you're in charge. (.)
Christine van Ruymbeke Sanam, hello. And, you know, the pleasure is all mine. I'm really very excited to be doing this podcast with you.
Sanam Well, thank you. Thank you for making the time. As you know, the podcast series up to now has been, the focus has been on big global issues. And then I talk to people who are at the front line of trying to make change on the big issues. And I ask them what they would do if they actually were in charge. But one of the things that I've noticed, and I wonder whether this is something that resonates with you, is that so many people I talk to these days are just saying things like, I can't deal with listening to the news. I'm, you know, I'm kind of completely locking myself out. People are anxious about what's going on. So, is that something that you're also seeing in Cambridge and in your environment? Absolutely.
Christine van Ruymbeke And I actually live that as well. I'm just, yeah, fed up with the gloominess of, you know, the surrounding world. And, yeah, it's definitely an issue. It's definitely a big issue.
Sanam And it's, and again, what I've tried to do with all the podcasts so far is to take those big issues, but talk to the people who are trying to solve the problems so that there's at least some hope if people tune in and they listen to the conversations. But this episode is slightly different because what I also found for myself is that we need our soul food. It's like, you know, it's one thing to be intellectually and emotionally frazzled out in the world with events that are happening. But we also need to ground ourselves in what I call soul food. So, for me, you know, poetry has always been an important place where I, I don't know, I feel some, sometimes it's comfort, sometimes it's just a sense of, okay, we're not the first generation to go through these issues. But poetry, literature, arts, I mean, these are the things that feed our soul. Music, obviously. What I thought about this particular episode was that you are teaching Persian literature and Persian poetry. And, of course, I have a slight bias towards Persian literature and Persian poetry, given my own background. But, but we have such a lit, rich body of work that really is about kind of the state of the world or governance or things that, that go on. And it's not really widely known, right? I mean, we, people talk about Shakespeare or, you know, I studied Yeats when I was doing my A-levels in English literature. But we don't really delve into the, into the poetry that exists. And this is what you do. This is, this is your work. How on earth did you get into this universe? What, what led you to the world of Persian literature?
Christine van Ruymbeke I came to study Persian literature and, and then I came to Cambridge, absolutely by accident. You know, I just, I had never.
Sanam That's what people want to hear, right?
Christine van Ruymbeke That is sort of serendipity. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Never planned to do that. When I was young, I was fascinated by Egyptology. And I had thought I'm going to study Egyptology at the university. My parents generally told, generously said, you know, go and do what you want to do. So, it just happened that at a university in Brussels, you couldn't study Egyptology from year one. I just looked down on the menu and I saw iranology. And I thought, hey, that's interesting. I had to do Greek at school. I didn't particularly enjoy Greek people. They were at war with Persian people. So, maybe, you know, the enemies of my enemies must be interesting people. And I just dived into this. I was, from day one, absolutely fascinated. Discovery still continues. And why was that at the time? Because I was discovering a totally unknown world. It was opening a window suddenly and putting my little Western, European, comfortable, assuming that we were the center of the world view, really into perspective, into challenge, and discovering that amazing, totally unknown for me, culture, a new language, new alphabet, fantastic history, fantastic texts, art, throbbing intellectual developments, voice of medieval authors. All that just filled me with wonder and also the realization that this was carried across centuries, across deserts, across water, across mountains, to rainy Brussels. So, the power of literature and art struck me back then as well.
Sanam Do you remember, was there a particular aha moment of, I don't know, a story or a piece of literature or poetry that you came across that was like, wow, this is, this is, you know, there's more to this than meets the eye or this is the tip of the iceberg? Was there something particular that stays with you?
Christine van Ruymbeke I think, I think, I think it came with visual art, possibly the calligraphy and realizing that the artists, the calligraphers, the ones who were copying the text, more important than the illustrators. They, the calligraphers would sign their names. (.) The illustrators remain anonymous for a great part of the, of the history. So, words, words mattered more than image. Yeah. That's, that's really interesting. That's so different to, to the West, right? Yes, absolutely. And, and, and the miracle of putting down thoughts and translating them into something that will remain. In an art form. Because the moment that we were talking here, yes, we can, we can now record things, but for most of our history, recording does not exist. And so, the fact that you have that tool, that incredible magic tool of putting down your thoughts and they will survive you because you are putting them down in, in, in, in handwriting. And then, of course, you just feel, well, it's not just jotting down things. It's transforming that jotting down into a wonderful piece of artwork. You know, so all that was something that I just never guessed and never thought about.
Sanam So, with that, let's go to the story. So, again, is a favourite for you? Is there some, is there a touchstone story or, or a piece of poetry that you go back to?
Christine van Ruymbeke Well, talking about the, probably the great, the greatest or the best known, exceptional author, like in Persian literature, which is Mola Naurumi, his, his, his lyric poetry, his, his poems are, I see them just as little dancing bombs of energy, of optimism, of beauty and dream. They're radiant. They're, they're, there's so much energy and mostly contentment, happiness that, that is shining through them. Even when he's saying, I'm very, I'm very sorry, I'm very unhappy, he will say, you know, but moaning, that's not what we need to do. We need to change our, our views and, and go elsewhere. But, so, thinking about just the first line of a poem that I absolutely love, forgive my accent. I am must, I am drunk, and you are mad. (.) Who will take us back home? I told you a hundred times, drink less, just two or three cups. So, that's the beginning of, of, of a long, of a long poem. But, you know, beyond the dancing words and the sounds, there's so much that's coming, coming up. Who is Rumi talking to? You know, can he be talking to God? But then, can he tell that God is mad? (.) Can he say that? Or is he talking to his Sufi master? And what, what, what is stronger and what is worse? Or is he talking to his, to his lover? To his, to his other self. Yeah. And is being drunk better or worse than being mad? What, what, what is happening there? But it's such, showing that he's, he's away from intelligent, normal people. He's, he's mad, he's drunk, he's, you know, in a different dimension.
Sanam And yet, it's such a, it's such a familiar image, right? Of, of a, whether, you know, a drunkard and a crazy person. I mean, like, some people that behave like that. You could see it on the streets, outside the pub on a Sunday, right? It's, it's, it's, so, it's very relatable, but at the same time, it's just so, yeah, absolutely. It's very strong. It's very strong.
Christine van Ruymbeke And, and, and, and, and showing that society and the rules of society are transcendent. They, they, they, they're not, they're not important. So, yeah, mystical poetry can help. So, my, my first example is taken from another extremely famous Persian poet, Sadi. (.) Sadi, he lived in a wonderful Shiraz in the heart of Iran, just a few years before the beginning of the very cruel period of the Mongol invasions. (..) I like to describe him as the Mozart of Persian poetry, because he's so pure, so perfect, so achieved, that it sounds really easy. It's so simple, it's so lovable, but there is so much art and knowledge and, and, and savoir faire and wisdom behind that, that it's, it's, it's, it's really, it's really incredible. So, I've chosen the first story, it's very brief, of his work called The Golestan, The Rose Garden. (.) So, okay, only, only the greatest authors can afford to do so, and Sadi is one of these, because he's never explaining. And he doesn't conclude his stories with, with an explanation, with a moral or anything. You will see it's just hanging there. It's just there, this is, this is a situation, and he will not judge, and he will leave us with just a few facts, and we have to sit down and start thinking about it. So, the story goes, a king has just given the signal to execute a prisoner. That desperate man, as does a cat with his, it's back to a wall facing a hungry dog, spits out his despair and hatred by cursing the king. (.) The king turns to his viziers and advisors, a little group of men standing next to him, and he says, what did the prisoner say? And one of his viziers, a man of deep kindness, says, your majesty, the prisoner quoted the Koran about the nobility of the one who forgives. (.) At these words, a second vizier just springs up, and he says, what? You can't say that? This is a lie, your majesty, it's not true. The people in the position of advisors to the ruler cannot afford to lie to the king. The truth is that the prisoner cursed you. And the king frowns, and he says, I prefer the lie of the first counsellor, because it was said with a kind intention, to the truth of the second one, because it will create misery. (..) Full stop. That's the story. That's the end of it. That's where Saadi leaves us. You know, very simple story, but in fact, there's so much to get from it. So... Yes, yes, please.
Sanam Yes, absolutely.
Christine van Ruymbeke I have the time to take some of the aspects, just two of the aspects that we have in the story, and that is already sufficient to completely change our understanding of it. So I think a hasty reader will conclude, and why not, that what Saadi says is that it's part of, you know, stock moral or ethics, well-intentioned lies, or better than through spoken with the intention to hurt. (..) That's slightly provocative. It's slightly, we have the impression that there's something more exciting that's behind that, but we don't really, we don't really know where to look for it. And that is because, as I said, we are used to read for information, and we automatically accept that the conclusion contains the lesson. We assume that the last words of the king are the conclusion, and that this is what we are meant to take home. (..) And it's been maybe a bit underwhelming, is that all our famous Saadi can do, you know, why put such an unexciting and brief story out right at the beginning of his big work? Why would he do that? So, in antiquity, in medieval and pre-modern and also early modern text, it's, as I said, not meant to give us information. It's meant to make us think. So let's try and think. We think about what Saadi says, we think about what Saadi has left out, very important. So what we don't know is what the prisoner's crime was. Did he try to kill the king? Did he steal an apple? We don't know whether the sentence was too harsh or proportionate. We don't know whether the king understood the curse of the prisoner. (.) And most remarkably, we don't know what the king will do, whether he will change his mind about executing the prisoner. So all that missing information alerts me that the prisoner is not important, that the story is not about the decision to execute him. (.) So in another of the second element I want us to look at is Saadi's use of that very well-known rhetorical device, use of quotations. Whether it's poetical quotation, referring to very respected texts, the Koran, or attributed to highly respected people, or related to everyday wisdom. (..) It's happening four times in the story, that very short moment of the story. We have that use of rhetorical quotation, and that's so well-known because it's influencing the person who's listening. It's used to influence, to buy the agreement of the reader. (..) So the first moment when Saadi is using that is when the narrator seems to explain or to excuse the prisoner's curse by saying, you know, this is just totally natural reaction. Everybody, you know, who has lost any hope will, you know, become dangerous, become, you know, bite. And so we are told that this is just a normal reaction, and we automatically accept that, or we imagine that the king will also accept that as a totally normal reaction, that he will understand and forgive, because that is a very, very human reaction. But is that so? I mean, the prisoner could have fallen on his knees and begged for pity. (..) So the author is not putting thoughts in the mind of the king, but by quoting lovely poetry, he's making us believe that this is recognized wisdom, and that we should work with that in the story. (..) The king turns to his advisors, offers them an opportunity. They will tell him the truth, or they will lie to him. The first vizier lies. He tries to influence him, and he's using the strongest of the possibilities of that rhetorical device, because he's quoting the Koran, he's quoting the holy text. And that is very unfair, because if you quote, and people know that since Latin times are much, much earlier than that, if you are quoting a religious text, you're really challenging immensely the person to whom you're quoting it, because it's very hard to go against quotation of an appeal to forgiveness from God. So it's very gross manipulations, and the king cannot mistake that. He cannot ignore it. (.) The second, the mean vizier, he doesn't like the first vizier, and he shouts out the truth. And he bases his intervention on the fact that the duty of the advisor is to tell the king the truth. Nobody can deny that. So we are put into that incredible conundrum. What aspect should win, advice according to religious tenets, or according to professional duty? (..) You know, it's not about the face of the prisoner. It's about the trouble for a king to work out what he needs to do, how he will act. And it's a problem. He will act wrongly. Whatever way he's choosing, it's going to go against something.
Sanam And also whether, as you say, if the first one is manipulating the Quran to try and get an outcome, is it an act of kindness to save the criminal, or is it perceived as a manipulation? And yeah, so, you know, is he a good vizier, or is he a good advisor? Yeah, it gets very complicated.
Christine van Ruymbeke It gets very, very complicated. And that's why Saadi has put that right on top of his book, because that's announcing to the reader who's sitting down and think hard, it's announcing, my book is all about that sort of problems. There's no good decision. No right or wrong. These are your choices. (.) Problems in choosing either of them, but you will have to choose one of them. (..)
Sanam And also, it's interesting because it's putting the king in a situation where the choice to execute or not execute the man comes down to, in a way, his preference. Because, as you say, what they've done is arguably giving him an out, if he wants to, to not kill the guy, and appear as a compassionate king, right? Or, yeah, it's very complicated.
Christine van Ruymbeke It's very complicated. And what, you know, whenever, whenever, if he chooses that path, a compassionate path, because it's tied to a lie from an advisor, what signal is he sending to his advisors?
Sanam That's right.
Christine van Ruymbeke And the one who has said the truth, who has done his job properly, is ignored. You know, so he can't, he can't win. He can't win. Yeah. So, and if we don't sit down, if we don't think about what the author is telling us and try to work it out, we pass over that sort of interest. We are never noticing it. That's what happens in Persian literature, but also in other medieval literatures. They're not giving us information. They're forcing us to think it out. It's not spelling out things for us. It's putting us in front of a situation.
Sanam And when you, when you teach this now in Cambridge to your students, do people relate it to particular events or things that are going on around them? Is this one of those stories where they're like, oh, this is, you know, did they kind of grasp onto it in a, in a specific way? Or is it, is it just something that they then use to, as a lens to understand the world?
Christine van Ruymbeke Yeah, that's, that's, that's the sort of reaction I get. Oh yes, well, that makes me think with, with Sadi's text is not that much about political reality or what, what's, what's happening around us. It's just about, oh yeah, well, yeah, I understand, you know, these are conundrums. This is, this is, this is how we should, we should look at it. The second example I have prepared, I are really geared towards training the brain, training the brain to understand. I'm not going to say that, explain that now. We'll, we'll, we'll see that together in a, in a moment. They are, they are shaping, they're, they're honing, they're sharpening our intellect. So, because, because, because life is not easy for no one. These texts were written and appreciated by rulers, by the people who had that incredible task of ruling over a country, not just the king, not just the queen, but also the viziers, anybody in power. I think we're really coming to an example that's, that's going to resonate with us, considering the, the, you know, what's happening in the news at the moment. So, I, I take it from another book, which is the Kalila and Demna, the book of Kalila and Demna. It's a very grim mirror for princess. It's, it's known as the Persian animal fables, but there are lots of stories with people there. And, and the one I'm choosing is, is, is with people, not with animals. I can't go into the, the history of the text, but it's very important. And true to, um, the way we are usually looking at literature, uh, if you, if you look up what has been, uh, done, uh, academic research on Kalila and Demna, it's all about the heredity of the text. And nobody has really looked at what this text, why this text, you know, disseminated, uh, across the whole of the medieval, the antique medieval, pre-modern and early modern world on, on, on, on, on, on, on the old, uh, Euro-Asian continent. When, when was it? So, it pops up, uh, really in history as a, um, uh, a text written in Persian, uh, in the language of the Sasanian empire.
Sanam Wow. Okay.
Christine van Ruymbeke So, the Sasanians, uh, were, uh, destroyed by the arrival of Islam. So, in the 8th century and the text itself, 8th century, we, uh, have the Caliphs in Damascus, who, the Umayyads, um, who are using, uh, converted Iranians as, uh, you know, viziers, as secretaries to help them, uh, rule, uh, over that immense empire. The, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the Arabs have conquered in a very, uh, uh, very short time. And we have this converted Iranian who finds himself serving, uh, the Umayyads and the new, um, the new, uh, family, the Abbasid, who rule in Baghdad. So, it's a movement of revolution. And, uh, and they want, uh, translations from the, uh, the, uh, old wisdom, uh, related to rulers and kings. It was around in the Sasanian time. So, we have this translation done into Arabic in around 750 or seven, very shortly after that. And from there, it's translated in Hebrew, it's translated into Latin, it's translated into any language, any language. It goes, you know, across to Malaysia, you know, it's sort of, uh, something that every ruler wants to have. Nowadays, it's totally ignored. Nobody looks at it. It's known as cute animal stories for children. Insertness. We, we have absolutely lost. And that was, that was my moment for me. I thought, but why, why should a ruler listen to that? These stories are really silly.
Sanam The book of leadership, basically. You're saying it was like the book of leadership for centuries across the world. And it's been reduced to animal stories that we don't be barely now. Yeah.
Christine van Ruymbeke We, we, we, we don't understand how to, how to read it. So, let's jump into the stories. It is the story of the carpenter, his naughty, unfaithful wife and her lover. So, we have a besotted carpenter. His wife isn't faithful, but he doesn't want to see that. But he gets, he gets people telling him, you know, um, there are whispers, more than whispers. There's some evidence. And so, he decides to try to trick his wife and discover the truth. So, he pretends he goes away on the travel for a few days. He goes away, but he climbs back through the window into the bedroom and he hides under the bed. And then, the wife immediately, as soon as the husband is gone, calls her lover. And we have the situation where we have the husband and hiding under the bed and the lover and the wife having fun on the bed. (..) The carpenter does not dare to move, not even to breathe. He's so afraid to be discouraged. But, somehow, the wife spots him under the bed and she whispers to her lover to ask whether she loves him more than her husband. And then, she loudly protests that she only loves the husband. Of course, the lover is just an unimportant, whimsy, a bagatelle, you know, but her real love is for her husband. The lover is a little bit unhappy and he leaves. The husband emerges from under the bed and he clasps his wife into his arms. My darling, raining kisses on her cheeks. You know, he knows that he is her only love now. And despite her, her whimsies, she is, in her mind, she is faithful to him. And so, well, she can jolly well continue with lovers all she wants. (.) That's our story. So, we have an additional, later, moral that has been tagged to the story about, you know, you should never let a woman lie through her faults and you should never forgive her. But that doesn't really help us very much. So, what can we do as a ruler with such a silly illustration of abysmal marital stupidity? What can we do? My advice is to go back to the moment when the wife spots the husband under the bed. (.) So, what does she understand? (..) The situation is extremely tricky and embarrassing. Yes, of course. Her unfaithfulness is discovered. Yes. (..) But he does not drag her by the hair to the judge, foaming at the mouth, screaming for divorce or punishment. The wife understands that he prefers to suffer silently rather than to confront her with her fault, rather than sending her away, destroying her. That he does not want to lose his married life despite her blatant unfaithfulness. That he's probably afraid to confront the young athletic lover. And that he does not want public exposure of their troubled marriage. (.) And so, the wife acts on that. She suggests a platform on which they can meet. She pretends she loves him. He pretends he believes her. The status quo can continue. Hooray! The marriage at home and outside the home will survive. The lover will not destroy it. And they pretend that it's the husband's decision to spoil his wife. He has saved face on the private as well as on the public sphere. (.) So, if we take the long view, well, it's rather evident that no one will be fooled by this. That things will not stop there. That the wife is going to take more and more lovers. That it will spill out of control. And in the long term, anyway, the marriage will be lost. (...) Now, if we translate that on the political sphere and on what's happening, you know, in the world today. To me, the narrative can cover all sorts of diplomatic crisis negotiations. We may think, for example, of the painful 1938 Munich appeasement negotiations with Hitler, where Hitler protested that he did not want a war. And he was allowed, you know, to keep that status quo. And, of course, it snowballed into a world war. But it's also exactly what happened when Putin took over Crimea a few years ago and promised that that was all he wanted to have. And he was allowed to do that. We were so happy. We were so happy that we didn't have to go to war at the time. But look what's happening now. And I think if you just use these stories and see how they're showing you that nothing is new in politics and in life. People are people, whether they lived 3,000 years ago or in the future. The problems remain the same. And those books, that literature is actually, through the centuries, telling you, be aware of that. The text is never telling us, this is what you need to do. This is how to save the situation. It's just telling us, you know, see what is happening. Project your thoughts in what will happen, what will follow up inevitably.
Sanam And it's interesting that you raise the analogy with Crimea and, you know, Hitler and appeasement and so forth. Because in my work, in the context of mediation, one of the things that we often talk about is that it becomes like conflict management. It's like nobody really wants to deal with the problem at hand. Nobody really wants to get to the roots of it or come up with a solution for the future. It's just kicking the can down the road or doing, you know, managing as opposed to transforming the situation. Now, here's the irony. In my work, what we often see is that women are the ones who are willing to deal with the truth and, like, do the hard work. But in this, at least in this story in particular, she is presented as being wily and, but also very smart. Like, thinking on her feet and figuring something out. You know, you could argue, well, she knows exactly the fact that he wants the status quo. And so she's giving him the ability to have the status quo, right?
Christine van Ruymbeke So there are two things. //S03: So many things.// These texts have no, and real life as well, have absolutely no regard for stupid people. This is a world where you have tricksters, would-be tricksters, and gullible people. And there's no, there's no pity for those who don't think and let themselves be fooled. And I'm sorry, but that's the harsh reality that I can see in the world. And about women, well, Persian literature, but medieval literature all over, has an enormous, sometimes disguised, respect for the powerful, how shall I say, the, yeah, the power of women. Women are strong characters, they're frightened men. They play with them, they make them do when they don't have the muscles to do, you know, queen doesn't have the muscles to go to war. Well, she will use male power to do that. So women are either recognized and admired for their power and their intelligence, or they are reviled and considered, you know, evil because of that power. Yeah, so that's very, very, very, very clear. You can say that. And it's, yeah, exactly.
Sanam No, no, and it's, and it's, it's very important because, you know, you can, when you think about A Thousand and One Nights and you think about Sherzad, from the original to whatever the English Victorian versions have become. But she is, she's the ultimate feminist. I mean, she, she's dealing with a guy who kills women and she uses her words and her stories to save herself, to save the other woman that would have come after her if she, if she had, if he had killed her. And through her stories, she makes him into a better king, right? //S01: Yeah, exactly.// So it's using her words and her, her intelligence to, to change the behavior of a powerful man with the only power she has. Like she doesn't have the power of armies or the physical power and so forth. So this, this is also really important in my work that, that it's, it's the use of words and emotion and, and understanding where women's, yeah, genuine power lies, right?
Christine van Ruymbeke So it's, it's, it's, it's, it's basically these, these, these intelligent women have identified where these powerful men are in need of help and they're providing the advice with words which are far more important than, than, than, than weapons. You know, words are, are much, much more efficient in, in, in, in winning a battle than weapons and, and, and, and women use words indeed.
Sanam If you were in charge, and, and it can be in charge of anything, you know, maybe you're in charge of the ministry of education or teaching literature, whatever, whatever you think, you know, if you were in charge, what would you do right now in terms of this vast knowledge and wisdom that sits there and that the lack of it in our public spaces? Like, and, and also the way poetry is where literature is even taught at universities. And so what would you do if you were in charge?
Christine van Ruymbeke So I would, you know, I was, I was, I was telling you before, before starting this podcast that these are the difficult questions that you're, that you're asking me because I never, I never think of those things. I never dreamed that I would ever be in charge. But there is a crying need for, uh, keeping literature alive, not just modern literature, but to go back to that wisdom that is there for us to profit from and, and which we just, you know, miss, miss out on because, uh, nobody's opening the door of, uh, understanding then how to read, uh, those works. So I, I think, I think, I think I would start with, with what I know well, uh, medieval Persian literature, and I would say, you know, this should be, part of it should be taught in, in, in, in school and in universities. And, and, and, and, and we must absolutely, uh, here in the West, uh, open up the global world and, and the global literature that is all around. And we would, we would be very surprised because that's, that's staring me in the face all the time, how close the literature of, of, of Iran, how, how across, um, a millennium, it has never stopped irrigating our literatures. It's never stopped being discovered, uh, translated, talked about, used, you know, you can, you can, you can see that in the medieval, medieval period with, uh, what we, what we maybe too quickly say, uh, was brought back from the crusaders, uh, from the Middle East, all the stories and all the art. (.) And, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and they were discovering these, uh, translations of these texts and these wonderful manuscripts and its influencing, uh, writers. And, and, and so I think we should, we should go back, you know, it's time, it's time to go back to reinventing, uh, that, uh, the discovery of, um, of that, um, that poetry. I would also make sure, I would also make sure, I mean, make sure, if I was really in power, for politics to stop, to stop meddling with research and with, um, education. You know, I'm an iranologist, uh, I started studying in the 1980s and I have, if you want, suffered for all this, all my career under the internal political crisis in Iran, and the way the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the Iranian culture, the last 50 years, that, uh, this, this field is condemned by, uh, the, the international rejection of, uh, of the regime. So, it's very difficult to get funding. It's very difficult to get students. And what can these poor students do with their degree in Persians, Persian literature and Persian culture? And what a loss for me, what a loss for the field of Persian literature. It was emerging in Iran in the Pahlavi, second Pahlavi period. All that is lost. So, you know, it's not just limited to Iran. It's, it's all over the place. Uh, but why, why should politics prevent that? (.) That's, that's certainly something I would, uh, I would feel very passionate about.
Sanam And, I mean, related to that, one of the things that I would add is that we're, everybody's so focused on STEM. And as a, uh, coming from a literature and anthropology background, I feel like it's really important to understand empathy and nuance and gray areas. And these stories, as you say, give you so many different perspectives depending on where you're sitting and the different layers and, and so forth. Whereas science and engineering just don't. Two plus two is four. It's not going to be maybe four sometimes, but maybe five, you know, it, there's a, there's a black and whiteness. And then actually the world around us is full of color and, and these stories have it. //S02: So we do need.//
Christine van Ruymbeke Literature is, is, uh, is opening our understanding of our own nature and mind. Uh, STEM subject is all about the world outside. You know, and it's the universe and it's very important. But, but, but literature is, is, um, accumulated knowledge and thoughts around what we are, what, and, and unless, unless we get ruled by robots, but again, robots will have been created by us. Uh, but, um, it's, it's so important to understand what, what it's, what it is like to be a human person.
Sanam That's, and then, thank you. That, that's, that's a very, very profound statement that we just never, yes, it's never really understood that way. Right. Um, second question, if you were the billionaire, if you were Mr. Musk right now, could, could have his checkbook or whatever, his cryptocurrency, whatever it is that he has, what would you do? I mean, you've talked a little bit about the lack of funding.
Christine van Ruymbeke Funding is, is, is absolutely necessary. I mean, more people to work on, on, on, on that, um, on that treasure. And then, and then a practical idea is that I would, that I would found a, um, a central institute for Persian studies or for other also understudied, uh, literary fields and cultures where, you know, we're a shrinking number of universities, a shrinking number of scholars doing that. And, and we would get together and, and, and I think we wouldn't be duplicating teaching. We would, we would be much, uh.
Sanam It would be so incredible to be able to have the Persian studies and the Persian literature with the Indian literature with the Chinese. And, you know, I mean, it's just, you know, just historically, I mean, whatever comes out of Latin America, we, we, we don't know really. It's, it's, it's just not part of, part of, we're just, we're just, we're just continuing in our tiny little Western world. //S03: And getting smaller and smaller, yeah.//
Christine van Ruymbeke Getting smaller and, and less and less important and less and less powerful, I'm sorry to say. And, and we are, we are cutting us up. You know, I, I, I can see when, when I meet Iranian people and I say I'm studying, I'm, I'm their friends straight away because I am taking the time and, and I'm interested in, in studying, uh, their culture. And it's, it's, it's across the world, across cultures like that. So why are we cutting ourselves from awareness and, and, and, and, uh, you know, sympathy?
Sanam And, and also, I mean, even in the political realm, you know, my father always used to say, you know, the least powerful, always understand how the most powerful operate because you have to survive. But, you know, as Iranians there, they understand the Western world, you know, they've, they study it, they see it, they're overwhelmed with all the media. And, and, and in a way, our, you know, Western diplomats or politicians are completely, um, at a loss when they're dealing with the other side. They have such limited, limited stereotypical understanding. I mean, it's, it's, in fact, it's not an understanding. It's a misunderstanding of when they deal with, with, uh, whether it's Chinese or Iranians, frankly, it seems.
Christine van Ruymbeke When I, um, when I, um, when I finished my, my, uh, um, undergraduate in Persian, I actually tried to do diplomatic service in, in Belgium. And, um, I, I got to the last, uh, the last interview where people, diplomats and people in the Ministry of, uh, uh, Foreign Affairs just laughed at me and said, you know, look at you, you're a woman. What are you going to do in Iran? And I said, but I know Persian and I, I know a little bit about the culture and I'm, I'm sure I could be useful. No, no, that's not what the diplomat is about. And, um, you know, as a woman, still remember, you must, uh, whom are you going to marry? You know, you've got to, you've got to find yourself an artist who can move, move around with you across the world. So, you know, I, I, I think it's, it's different now, but at the time, there's no interest for somebody who can come with knowledge of, uh, of the country. Yeah. (.)
Sanam Final question, actually, on, you know, in a way it's a good segue, but what gives you hope in terms of going forward? (.)
Christine van Ruymbeke In a way, looking at my, at my own joy and interest for this field, despite all the, the challenges there are, I, I am very confident that other people who would, who would do the same, the same journey as I do, would also be rewarded beyond, beyond expectations and beyond what they can imagine. Also looking at, at the students who are teaching with me, um, I just feel that I am, I think I'm going, I'm, I'm doing something useful that gives me hope because I'm not asking them to remember facts about Persian literature that they will never use in their lives. I am giving them, I am giving them, I am giving them, I am giving them a way, uh, into, in, uh, that, that, that enormous amount of knowledge that is accumulated there and that will follow, follow them and maybe guide them throughout their lives. So that's, that's, that's, that's giving me hope, um, and maybe, maybe some of them will be, uh, will become, will, will, will reach, you know, positions of power and will be able to make a difference in the world coming with that understanding, um, and admiration for cultures that maybe nowadays are lagging, uh, behind, but have the power to, to, to, to be important differently in a different way.
Sanam That, that's, I, I think that's, that's wonderful and I think your point about the fact that, uh, the amount of joy you get out of knowing this literature is, is not something you can buy, like, and it's not something you take with a pill or, it's, it's the knowledge, it's the cumulative knowledge and then it's, it's genuinely the sort of soul food kind of thing. (.) and, and, and, yeah, you, you feel like saying, come on, come on, come into my world and see the world. Well, thank you very much for coming into my world and sharing a little piece of what you, what you do. I, we could have carried on this conversation forever because I was just quite happy listening to you telling the stories. You have such a wonderful way of telling the stories as well.
Christine van Ruymbeke Thank you. You never miss, you never miss, um, your, your, your audience when you're talking about Persian literature. I think it's, uh, it's, uh, irresistible, but thank you. Thank you for giving me a voice and, uh, being able to, uh, reach, uh, reach out to people who would normally not, um, not be aware of, uh, of what I do.
Sanam Well, thank you. Thank you, Christine. And, uh, and yes, storytelling. I think we just need to put our, put the way we talk about life in the form, frame of stories and, and, and see how rich they are. But really enjoy and hope to see you soon in London or in Cambridge.
Christine van Ruymbeke And, uh, thank you so much.
Sanam And enjoy the spring there. Talk to you soon. Thank you.
Christine van Ruymbeke Thank you. Thank you. (10 seconds pause)
Sanam Hey, so, so, um, what did you, what did you have to do in your lab right now?
Soleh I had to switch a reaction. (..)
Sanam How are my friends that those, you know, echinacea, you know, things?
Soleh They're not called that. (..) I don't know what echinacea is. Anyway, I think it's a flower or something, but anyway.
Sanam It's echinacea is good for you when you have a cold. Um, okay, so let's get back to, let's get back to our poetry. Okay, so when I said to you, I want to do a piece with Christine on looking at poetry and the role of storytelling and specifically Persian poetry in terms of our understanding of politics, geopolitics, leadership. Did you think I was nuts?
Soleh No, because I, I know you, like, it not, I thought it was a bit strange, but. (.) I was like, oh, okay. I mean, that checks out in terms, like, as something that you would, you would want to do. Um. (....)
Sanam Okay, I'm sorry. I'm sorry for being such a strange brain.
Soleh No, I'm not in a bad way, but in a way that, like, I don't know that, I don't know that many other people will be like, yeah, you know what makes sense? Like, we'll do one episode on, like, AI surveillance and then another one on, you know, women working in, in, um, Palestine. And then, and then we'll do one on, like, poetry and then, um. But it wasn't just about the point.
Sanam First of all, it's because it's soul food. We all need our soul food at this point in time when things are going so badly around us. So, that's part, that was part of the reason.
Soleh Mm-hmm.
Sanam But, but the real reason, or the, the way I connected the dots, if you want, in my cluttered head, was that when I think about Persian poetry and the stories, um, and I really don't know enough of it, which I'm really sad about. But what I've seen of Saadi and Kailin Demnan and others is that there are stories about society and about governance and about leadership and about how human beings deal with things. So, that was the connection I was trying to make to say.
Soleh Yeah, no, I, I'm not saying it's not a valid connection. I'm just saying it's a connection that not so many people would make, but that I almost expected from you, like.
Sanam Well, thank you. I'm glad, I'm glad that I kind of surprised you and kind of didn't. What did you take away from it, actually? Let me think about it that way.
Soleh I thought the talk at the, like, at the end, talking about how this, you know, it should be taught more and how it's kind of been reframed, like, as just, oh, funny animal stories or, or whatever was, was interesting. And particularly about, you know, as someone who does do STEM, I would, like, I would push back a little bit. I mean, it goes both ways. Like, I mean, growing, having gone to school in the U.S. and having gone to a technical undergrad, but we still had kind of some, like, concepts of, like, history, English, whatever requirements. Yeah, the whole concept of, like, well-rounded. And I think a lot of the time people talk about it as, like, science students still need to take literature classes. I would say it should go the other way, too, personally, because then you have crazies, you know, people going around saying, like, crazy stuff, not being able to interpret, like, basic science that's in the newspaper.
Sanam To show you, that's a very good point, absolutely.
Soleh Yeah, which I think it's a huge factor in terms of, like, you know, why climate change kind of myths still persist is because people stopped taking any kind of science at age, like, you know, 14 or something. And so, but that's maybe another discussion. (..) But, yeah, I think.
Sanam Yeah, no, that's a good point. But, yeah, but the idea, the idea of being able to see, to understand the science, but then also the humanity. But the other point that she made, which I thought was fascinating, was that, you know, literature, whether you're looking at the body of literature coming from, you know, Persian literature, which is ancient or Hindu or Chinese or Western, you know, English, French, et cetera. It is about us in a, it's the history of thought. //S01: Yeah.// It's the history of imagination in a different way.
Soleh And it's also the history of, like, human interactions and what she was saying that, you know, these stories may have been told however long ago, but those interactions and, like, power dynamics and all of that still exists. (..) And, yeah, and, I mean, just because you work in science, you're still, you're not doing it alone. Like, I mean, at least most people aren't doing it alone. (.) It is definitely important for everyone. And, yeah.
Sanam Sorry, you know, for me, and one of the things that I always say in my work, and I make the comparison, is that, you know, I pick up my iPhone and I say, when I started my work 30 years ago, we had mainframe computers. And now science has brought us to the point where we have this phone that has my computer and my phone and everything in it. I can look back at something that I wrote 30 years ago and read it today, and it would seem as if I wrote it yesterday, right? And then I look back, and I've recently, I've been looking at, say, the statements from Bertha von Suttner, who was the inspiration behind the Nobel Peace Prize. Or I look at the poetry of W.B. Yeats, where he says, the center cannot hold, you know. And I'm like, oh, my God, we, you know, and when people say, oh, we're repeating history, I'm like, literally, you could take the statements of 100 years ago, 200 years ago. Probably, you know, Lysistrata, written a Greek play, it's about, it's about women and a sex strike to stop their men going to war.
Soleh Yeah.
Sanam It's, we are repeating the same thing. So, in a way, we're not learning from our own history, whereas science builds and evolves and develops, and we see the physical remnants, good or bad, of what's been built. Whereas, this human interaction, there's something universal about it, but it seems as if we're just, as individual human beings, we have to keep repeating and learning for ourselves, as opposed to learning from the past experiences. I don't know whether that makes sense.
Soleh Yeah, but then at the same time, like, you can read, you can read the, you know, ancient texts and, like, Greek plays or Shakespeare or something like that, and learn a lot from it that's still relevant to today. But I'm not reading a science textbook from the Middle Ages. (.) Like, I mean, you could if you're interested in the history of science, but you're not learning science from it.
Sanam Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, it's, you're right.
Soleh Like, you know, there's kind of basis of things, but, like, science does, yeah, science rebuilds, is constantly, like, tearing down and rebuilding. And there's kind of, you know, there's things to be learned from both sides where I think, like, in an idealistic kind of world, like, science is constantly learning and questioning itself. And therefore, like, tearing down to, like, tearing down to build up, or just building up, like, maybe, you know, solidifying the foundations even more. (.) That's, like, at least the goal of, like, building scientific knowledge, you know.
Sanam Well, so, yeah, so that's science. And then the human experience is that every single one of us either wants to or goes through those universal experiences anew.
Soleh Yeah.
Sanam So, I mean, even little things, I remember when you guys were little, when you were about two years old, and I think probably the first time I gave you ice cream, and watching you experience this cold thing in your mouth, right, it was just so sweet and so cute. And at the same time, I remember thinking, wow, you know, this experience of something cold or something hot in the mouth, just this physical experience, every child has to go through it themselves, right? I could, we could tell you to the cows that come home that, you know, don't take a big bite, you're going to get a brain freeze, but until you do it yourself, it's, so there's obviously that part. And then I think about it in terms of society and, and again, where we are now, because I, because I look at, you know, why do we have the UN? Because three generations ago, they said, we want to stop the scourge of war for future generations. And they've built this institution and, you know, all the good, the good, the bad. I mean, it needs reform, it needs to be updated, but the idea of trying to prevent war for us and for future generations was so strong. And they weren't the first ones to think it 500 years ago, people that thought about it as well. But after two world wars, we finally got to that point and it's taken two generations and we're sort of forgetting it. You know, it's, it's like World War II is, and, and the atom bombs and it's all just being forgotten and militarization is back. And that's where, where I'm like, you know, maybe we need this literature and the history, not only the history to be understood, but the literature that tells us about human foibles and about leadership and egos and things to be really central to the way we teach our kids. So that, you know, yeah, I don't know, something.
Soleh Well, that's, I think the, the point is like to constantly be, also you can't just read a story and like take it at face value or at its word. Like it's about questioning it and interpreting it for yourself and how does it apply to you and what situations can you see like parallels in and, and all that. So, yeah, it's, and I think, I mean, the same, in a way, I think like sometimes the same goes for science where like it's much more compelling if you make it relevant to you. Like it's, it's very boring and history too, in a way. It's like, if you're just teaching it as like, this is what happened and this is how it works. Like on the whole, you probably won't be compelling anybody, but if you relate it to like, this is, this is a pattern that keeps happening and how can we see that today? Or, you know, for science, let's go outside and like see what, what we've learned actually is kind of thing.
Sanam You know, the other thing that I found really wonderful was the way she told the story and her descriptions. You, I just, you know, I was like, oh my God, I want to go sit in her class or we should just, I said to her afterwards, I was like, we should just do like a regular every two weeks, you know, some kind of podcast where we look at the world and you tell me which, which story it resonates with it in, in, in poetry. Because her, her, the way she tells it and you can feel her passion, but also the intellect in, in how she shares it, right? Her classes must be wonderful.
Soleh It was, yeah, and how she took like a story that's like five sentences and, you know, you can kind of take so much from it and interpret it so many ways and gather so much about like what the author was intending or not intending or. (.)
Sanam Well, good. Well, I'm glad that you.
Soleh Her farsi is very good too.
Sanam I was going to say that, that are you not embarrassed that your farsi is not.
Soleh Okay. I mean, she literally studies it for her whole life. Like her whole, her profession is an ironologist. I would, honestly, I'd be kind of shocked if, even if my farsi was better, if it was as good as hers is, but.
Sanam There's some, some incentive to, to get, to start farsi because we have so many good lines of words and so many idioms and just, there's, there's a lot of just richness in the, in the.
Soleh Yeah. Spit some farsi bars. Come on. Some farsi bars. Okay.
Sanam Actually, no, this, this one is a really important one for me. It's a, it's a poem that we learned. I think it was in the fifth grade. We had to memorize it. And the whole poem is, is the story of a shepherd out in the fields and he's talking to God and he's so in love with God. And he says, God, I love you so much. I'm going to, you know, if ever you got sick, I would come to your house and I would wash your feet and, you know, feed you and, and give you water and look after you and so forth. And, and out of the blue, Moses shows up and says to the shepherd, how dare you talk to God like that? As if God is human, you know, you should be ashamed of yourself. And so the poor shepherd gets, is devastated by, by being told off by, by Moses. And he, you know, pulls off his rags and he goes off the, into the wilderness, um, to kind of be alone or isolate himself. And then the booming voice of God comes to Moses and says, how dare you talk to my followers and my flock like that? We value what is in the heart and in from within what they show from within, you know, what they show outwardly is not of consequence. And, and, and this is something that I take with me often within my work when I'm dealing with people. The specific line of verses, (.......) And when, and when I think about, you know, religious leaders or, or even just watching the conclave stuff and I, and I think, wow, look at, look at all this sort of the red cloaks and all this gold, gold and brocade and, and all these things. And then, you know, really what's, what's the heart and soul that is within and, and what is it that matters and how do we, how do we make sure that we're touching that and we're finding that and we're not getting distracted by the outward issue. So, and it's also about giving benefit of the doubt, right? That, that, you know, people express themselves in different ways, but, um, but at the end of it, you want to see what their true soul and what their meaning is. So, so, um, yeah, so that, that's one of the, um, poems in, in, in Farsi and, or in, in Persian literature, it's also a poem that is, um, it's called Musou Shabon, the, the, uh, Moses and the shepherd. It's also a poem that is essentially about Sufism because it's, it's the shepherd, obviously from, you know, the sort of inner soul, um, or inner spiritual kind of values, but it's also the shepherd facing Moses and then God telling Moses. Moses is the representative of institutional religion, telling Moses off if, if you want. So, there's something kind of rebellious, if you want, about the idea of the poem, but it's one of my favorites. Another one that I, that we have is a line of verse that says, from whom did you learn your manners from the ill-mannered? And again, that's also kind of a way of looking at life and leadership and, and people that you come across that, you know, from whom did you learn your, whatever, your, your manners is often, if you see people that are really badly mannered, then you say, I don't want to be like that.
Soleh I know a good one about, I know a good one about a glass maker who peed in 666,000, 666,000, 666,000 bottles. (....)
Sanam That is a very specific poem because in Persian text, um, we have letters that have dots and the sh sound has three dots. And so, this particular little ditty is the piece of verse that has the most number of dots in it. There's another one that is a, is a, is a, is a, again, similar kind of little, you know, ditty. These are like Persian limericks that has no dots in it, but I can't remember that one. This, this particular one, my, um, my dad used to teach us as kids and, of course, he taught you guys as well, so.
Soleh We used to say it all together, no?
Sanam Yes, that's right. (.)
Soleh He had a whole chorus of kids talking about peeing in bottles. (.)
Sanam We used to play games, um, when we traveled and, uh, it's, it's an old Persian game where you say a line of verse, it ends with a letter and the next person has to pick up that final letter and start their line of verse, um, with that. So, so, so, you know, and, and it could be a mixture of the high, high poetry and the very low kind of stuff like this as well. So, um, so it was useful to have a few of these lines in our pockets when we played those games. (.) I wish we, I wish we could, I wish I had taught you guys. I, you know, I'm sorry for my illiteracy to not teach you Persian poetry, but I, but I hope that you read the books in English and, um, and can find the, um, good translations. We should look for them together. (..) Yeah. (.....) My thanks to the Bijan Gheysar Foundation, my own organization, ICANN, and Africa Digital Audio for making these podcasts possible. If you have ideas for topics or for people that I should invite and have a conversation with, please let me know at info at icanpeacework.org. Info at icanpeacework.org. You can also follow the events on our newsletter, which is on the ICANN website, same address. I really hope that the conversations, the ideas, the solutions, the hope and the inspiration that you've heard in these conversations keep you going over the next week. And that you join us again. So stay well and see you soon. And I hope to hear from you. Thank you. Bye-bye.