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Marwa Hammad One of our participants, she's from Gaza, and she's part of the peace-building programs. She lost 30 members of her family. One of them is her brother. She told us, okay, I lost enough of my beloved ones. I don't want to lose more. (.)
Yael Braudo-Bahat First of all, my Palestinian sisters give me hope because I know how hard it is for them to be peace-builders and to be in touch with Israel. It's much easier for me. Every time I see them, every time I work with them, I get hope. I know it's possible.
Sanam That's Yael Brauda Bahat of Women Wage Peace of Israel and Marwa Hamad of Women of the Sun in Palestine, two feminist organizations working together, calling for peace in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and a return to the negotiation tables. On If You Were In Charge, with me, Sanam Naraghi Anderlini. Welcome, everyone. The show is brought to you by the Bijan Gheysar Foundation and my organization, ICANN, where for 20 years we've been working with women peace-builders on stopping wars and violence around the world. As you know, each week I talk with other doers and imaginers about the tough issues they tackle. As we record, the violence in Gaza continues. 52,243 people have been killed by the Israeli attacks. It's the conflict with the most overwhelming percentage of children being killed historically. There is a famine right now. Aid isn't getting through. And the signs for another ceasefire or the return of hostages or a return to any form of political settlement at the highest levels of government seem to be really, really bleak. It's one of those conflicts where people just assume that it's impossible to find a solution and that impossibility is probably part of the reason why, over the years, the intention and interest to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has waxed and waned. But the reality is that there's always been efforts at the local level and by ordinary people to try and end the violence. And since the 1990s, a lot of that work has been done by Israeli and Palestinian women. So there are generations of Israeli and Palestinian women who have taken the risk, had the courage to reach across the aisle to sometimes cause ostracization and polarization from their own communities to face that kind of mistrust from their own communities when they reach across the aisle to find a bridge to the other side. This happened back in, as I say, in the 1990s, in the run-up to what was the Oslo peace process, there were Israeli and Palestinian women working together. In the aftermath, they were pushed out of the process. Then came the second in the Fada in the early 2000s. Again, there was a time when Israelis and Palestinians would not meet in public, but there were women who had the courage to do so. And so this story has gone on and we now have a new generation of women across the divide. And these two organizations, Women Wage Peace and Women of the Sun, are really one of the best examples that we have. They've issued a mother's call. It's a petition for peace and they ask others to join. And what they simply ask for is that instead of using violence to resolve the conflict, we should have the courage at all levels, politically and socially and internationally, to sit and talk things out. So this is the kind of peace work that many of my partners at ICANN do. And it's not glamorous. It's not newsy because often the pictures just look like people sitting around talking to each other. But when you think about it, when you think that at the end of the day, whether it's about the Israeli and Palestinian context or the Ukraine context, even if we think there is a military victory by one side or the other, the reality is that people are neighbors. (.) These regions and these communities are mixed. And you need a political solution for sustainability. You also need a societal solution. You need societies to come together. And you need a culture of peace and a culture of trust in a way to be woven together. And these women are doing this kind of work. So I hope you enjoy this conversation. It comes at a difficult time for them and for all of us. What's extraordinary is that the two organizations were working together prior to October 7th, 2023. And in the immediate aftermath of October 7th, the Palestinian Women of the Sun group reached out to their colleagues of Women Wage Peace to ask them how they were. And one of the greatest tragedies was one of the founders of Women Wage Peace was amongst the people who was murdered on October 7th. So this is very raw, very emotional for them. And yet they set an extraordinary example for everybody else. You need to look to the future and you need to continue to see the humanity on the other side and to think about the children. And the idea of this mother's call is so, so powerful. So join me in the conversation. And afterwards, I will be talking to Sola, as usual, to get her reflections as a young woman who, when she was born, this conflict was going on. And now she's 24 and this conflict is going on. So it's multi-generational in terms of its impact. But there has to be a solution. And you can imagine, I imagine that, or I believe, that if she were in charge, or if women were in charge, things would be incredibly different to the way things have been so far. Thank you. (....) Ladies, welcome to If You Were In Charge. As you know, the podcast is really about talking to people who are at the front line of doing things, of finding the solutions to some of the world's biggest problems. problems, and the two of you really sit at the nexus of one of the most significant, long-term, (..) complicated, traumatic issues that we deal with in the world, which is the Israel-Palestinian conflict. I wanted to ask you first, (.) how is it that you're able to talk to each other and work with each other? Tell me, what is life for the two of you in what you do, how you do it, and how you see each other? What's your relationship?
Marwa Hammad Okay, I'm Arwa, I'm from Bethlehem City. So for me, like, I didn't imagine, actually, in a day that I will sit with the Israeli on the same table. But you know, when you live in a conflict zone, like where we are living, and you see the suffering, see the resilience of the woman, we, as women, we are not there on the table. We are in the middle of the war, we are in the middle of the conflict, but nobody asks us, what's your opinion? Or what do you think about that? So being here today and being, like, sitting here with the Israel on the same table, it's because we, as women, as a Palestinian woman, we need to raise our voice. There should be somebody to see, like, our daily life, our reality, what we face each day. You know, we know that it's not easy to sit with the Israel on the same table due to the normalization, due to the Palestinian look to the people who are sitting with the Israeli as, you know, betraying the Palestinian people. But if not today, if not like we sit on this table, if we're not sharing a vision together. Because for me, as a mother, I care about my children. I don't want, like, not to be murdered or to be in prison or to be injured. And I believe, like, each mother wants that. And this is what brings us all together because we care about our communities, we care about our new generation, and we want them to live in dignity, safely. And this is the solution. It's to find dialogue. And as you said, Sanam, after the Second Intifada with the Upper Side Wall, the gap between the Palestinians and the Israelis become more and more and worse. So the hatred, the revenge feelings. So finding the dialogue, finding people like, you know, like women who wish peace, that they want peace, they want Palestinians. Because for us, we don't meet except, you know, the soldiers or the settlers on the roads. We don't meet people like El or like others behind the wall. So finding these solutions, finding the dialogue with respect, with empathy between us as women is very important. And it's a part of solution to build peace in our own community. So that's why it's very important to have, like, Palestinian-to-Palestinian programs and Palestinian-to-Israel programs. So you have the bridge or come over the gap that we have on both sides.
Sanam Thank you, Marwa. Yael, how does it feel from where you sit in terms of your own community and how they react? For us,
Yael Braudo-Bahat to wage peace is very difficult. It was very difficult before October 7. It's even more difficult now. Although now, no one can be indifferent to the conflict like it was before in Israeli society where most Israelis before October 7 hadn't experienced the conflict on a daily basis and were just, you know, it's manageable. So now, everyone knows it's not manageable, but it's very difficult to persuade that peace is possible, that we have partners on the other side. We've built this partnership with Women of the Sun in three years since our official public announcement that we are partners and working together in the launch of the Mother's Call. Before that, I've been active in Women of the Peace. This is, for me, my first political home. The first time I felt that I can look around and not feel, you know, only despair and feel I have hope peace is possible. and I became an activist in Women of the Peace over eight years ago, eight and a half years ago. And for us, the partnership with Women of the Sun, we didn't even know that we had this dream of having a sister movement, a Palestinian sister movement. And it happened. And for us, it was really, truly amazing. We feel that we provide a model showing that it is possible to talk. It is possible because we argue on many, many things, including the wording of the Mother's Call when we just drafted it over nine months, working together, arguing on each and every word, but we made it, we did it, and we know that it's possible and want to provide this model to other organizations, to other parts of Israel, the Israeli and Palestinian societies, and, of course, to our leaders. We were fortunate enough to have the chance to build the partnership and build our trust before October 7th. And when October 7th happened, for us, it was, you know, of course, we're continuing together. People asked me from time to time at the beginning, are you still in touch with those women of the sun? And I always say, of course, this is the time that our voices and our partnership is mostly needed. We've been doing since October 7th. We not only we didn't stop working together, we intensified our joint work because we know and we saw what happened in other countries in the past, in Northern Ireland, in Liberia, where women from both sides of the conflict stood together, united, and demanded peace and they succeeded. And we take inspiration and hope and we learn from those cases so we can do it, you know, we can contribute to the resolution of our conflict as well.
Sanam Thank you. It's the 25th anniversary of Resolution 1325 and we, at the time, back in 2000, were inspired by the work of Israeli and Palestinian women, so the generations before you. So this, you know, what seems to be a consistent feature of conflict around the world is that when these conflicts break out, there are certain women, not all women, but some women who emerge as peacemakers and peacebuilders and running to the problem and it's almost like an invisible force, but you are there and it's been a consistent issue in your context as well. Marwa, what is the daily work? You know, you've talked about and Ayyal mentioned the mother's call. What is the work that you do together and what is the work that you do separately in your own communities? You know, when somebody says, when you say, I'm a peace builder or, you know, we work together, what does that look like? What are the impacts that you're proud of?
Marwa Hammad Our work is rooted in the belief that women are not just the victim of the conflict, they are the powerful agents of the change. Palestinian programs where we focus on the economic empowerment because, you know, if you don't have, like, economic security, it will not, like, lead us to the peace political freedom because breaking economic dependency for the women will equal breaking the male dominance because, you know, for us, you know, reeling on the male-controlled structure, whether in the families, workplace, or politics, (.) the dependence limits the woman ability to make independent political choices or challenges and advocate for their rights. So what we see is women without financial independence are officially, often, like, excluded from decision-making in both households and society and on the negotiation table. Due to the situation and, you know, the war that is still, like, going on, let's say, we have emergency aid for our groups in West Bank and in Gaza Strip (.) and, finally, we have some initiatives and the other part of the project that, unfortunately, we couldn't continue, which is women building stories due to the cut-off of the USAID programs. so this is mainly what we are working and we have been awarded and for this year, we started with the nomination for the Nobel Peace Prize. So, yeah, this is part of our work and the Nobel Peace Prize. (..)
Sanam I'm so happy that you have been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize. I can't think of a better sort of symbol of peace than the work that you're doing under the context and specifically in Gaza. And Marwa, I'll come back to you on that. Yeah, and what does the work, yeah, from your side, what does this work look like? This mother's call, like, yeah, what do you do together and, again, what's the effect of it in your own societies?
Yael Braudo-Bahat So, first of all, as Marwa said, we have several joint programs. The biggest one was the Women Building Bridges Project. Before that, before October 7th, we actually signed the contract with USAID on September 27th, 2023, just 10 days before October 7th. And despite the war, and in many regards, because of the war, we decided to continue this project, to implement it. We knew how important and crucial it is, and we definitely received this feedback from our participants. One of them said that it was like a shot of hope every month, and this was what helped me during this difficult time. Before October 7th, we held a very big event on October 4th, just three days before. We marched together in Jerusalem, 1,500 women, hundreds of them coming from the West Bank to Jerusalem to march with us, the Israeli women, marching together, calling to change reality, calling to stop the bloodshed. We finished this day very hopeful in a rally near the Dead Sea where we declared our partnership three years ago, telling about the mother's call, telling about our plans for the forthcoming year, and not knowing that just three days later everything is going to change, very tragically. one of the organizers of this event, one of the co-founders of Women Wage Peace, Vivian Silver, was murdered in her house in Kibbutz Berry on October 7th, leaving us all on both sides, both movements mourning. These are the things that we did together before and after October 7th. We also had meetings in Israel with Rim, Rim Hadjajra, the leader of and founder, co-founder of Women of the Sun, coming to Israel seven times to talk to Israeli audiences to tell them about Women of the Sun, about herself, about her life in the refugee camp as a peacebuilder, showing Israelis, hundreds and thousands of Israelis, that it's possible that there are partners on the other side. And as Ma'am said, we are also separate movements, independent movements, so each working with each audience and communities, trying to fit exactly what each community needs. So in Israel, we now, since October 7th, we stand with the families of the hostages daily. We have a daily vigil since the beginning of the war, demanding the release of all hostages in a deal that ends the war and of course promoting later long-term negotiations towards a long-term solution. We just launched a public campaign showing Israeli audiences that peace and the political way provides the security that we all deserve. Because when you say security in Israel, you mostly mean the military security. And we know, and we've just received this tragic (.) proof over the past year and a half that military force cannot provide security. Security will be achieved by the political solution.
Sanam Marwa, October 7th, when you heard the news and saw what was going on and your movement saw what had happened. First of all, what did it feel like from where you were sitting as Palestinians? What did it, what was your reaction?
Marwa Hammad It was shock. (.) Because, you know, before three days we were, like, marching together and now everything, you know, starts to change. You know, for us, maybe it's not like the start of the 7th of October. You know, this conflict has been, like, since 75 years. so, but since, you know, the 7th of October until now, it's not stopping. You know, many women from our, like, members have been killed during this war. We lost 38 women from members of Women of the Sun.
Sanam They were in Gaza, the members? //S02: Yeah.//
Marwa Hammad Yes. Yeah, we have a group of 500 women in Gaza Strip. During the last year, we supported them, like, you know, through the emergency aid, but it was hard, you know, to continue with it. So, we focused to have a tent to implement our programs and activities like trauma healing, education for the small children, and we graduated more than 200 children, and our beneficiary was more than 1,000 beneficiary during the last year. So, for us, you know, this is a way how we support it. For our partnership, you know, we were very happy and proud, like, we have the strength to continue after the 7th of October. Our director, Reem, called, sent on the group, and she asked them, okay, this is the time, this is a real test for us to continue or to stop our work. And we all agree that, okay, it's time, you know, to continue because, you know, we want to revise this pain to hope because we want to be there for our people. And on the same time, it's time, okay, to let the people open their eyes that, you know, as I always said, you know, this conflict isn't manageable anymore. We need to resolve it. We need to find a solution. And hopefully, yeah, we will achieve peace. (.)
Sanam So in terms of your own Palestinian communities, you know, whether you're members in Gaza and what's happening, you know, and people in Gaza or in the West Bank, the fact that you decided to continue, and as you said, your director, Reem, reached out to Yael and said, we need to carry on. Has that been a challenge? Have people said to you, you guys are betraying us? or has it changed since, you know, from 2023 to 2025 over these months? Have people's attitudes changed?
Marwa Hammad Yeah, let's say, yeah, it's changed because, you know, in the first maybe months of the war, they said, okay, yeah, we like, okay, we come over. Israel, it's the first time that, okay, Israel get this slap from the Palestinians. So each time we are the one that is, you know, the victim. You know, actually, from the first day, I was saying, you know, the situation will not be good. don't be happy for something, for this violence because we will pay for it. See what, you know, violence brings. It only brings more violence. You know, having a long, one year and almost a half, so now people, you know, let's say more educated, have more awareness about, you know, going to the war because they pay the price of it. So I think most of the people now, they are with the peace building. Yeah, we have a fear to say, okay, yeah, I'm with the peace building. I can sit on the table with Israeli, but if you think this is the only way, you know, to save our children, this is the only way to raise our voices as women, and this is the only way to find equitable solution because if we are not on the table as the Palestinians, who will raise our voice? Who will say what we need to say? So it's a need for us to be there.
Sanam Thank you. I think this is exactly, I think, as you say, the crux of it, that we see it's the first time, I think, in recorded history of a war where children make up something like 40% of the victims, that civilians, and especially women, because I think it's important to count the men as well, but it is so devastating in terms of the civilian population. Those of us who are in the peace building world, from the beginning, we were saying that the bombs will have to stop, and at some point, the talking has to begin. Both of you, in terms of the political and military leadership in your own context, what is the appetite for talking to you, for bringing you in? Marwa, are you getting more traction now? Is there, is the PA more willing to imagine an inclusive process in terms of Hamas? What do they say to you guys? And similarly, Yael, for you and Israel, how do they react? Yeah, Marwa, do you want to go first?
Marwa Hammad For us, it's, you know, since the beginning, the woman wasn't there, and even if we have, like, women in the political arena, they are mostly, like, the woman in one of the political parties. So, for now, we don't have, like, any woman that represents this part of our community. And unfortunately, there are no negotiation tables for the Palestinian Authority.
Yael Braudo-Bahat No one is talking to us. In the past two years, we've had, we've been devastated in Israel because of the current administration. (.) Constantly, and even during the war, infringing civil rights violence and democracy and peace and, it's really, it's really awful. We've been on the streets. The Israeli liberal camp was on the streets before October 7th for almost a year, for 40, 40 weeks. So, so we don't feel that we have currently partners in the Israeli administration. We keep working with everyone who wants to talk to us and wants to promote and contribute to our efforts. currently, it's mainly from the opposition. However, we do remain a non-partisan movement and not affiliated with any specific party or any specific side of the Israeli political map. And of course, if you ask anyone on the street, any Israeli, they would say women of the, women wage peace are from the left side because, you know, there is peace in their name. But this is exactly what we're trying to change for more than, for more than 10 years now, that peace is for everyone, it's for the left and right and as well as security and the peace and security are intertwined. But it is very, very difficult to work with the current administration, hardly any women in decision-making positions. The rare women, the few women that are there, it just align with the masculine and the patriarchal values and actions. However, if for some reason, suddenly they will decide to promote peace, we will support, we will engage, we will be there. Whatever happens, we will continue to pursue peace.
Sanam If you were in charge, if you were the Europeans coming in, or if you were the Arab world right now, looking at the problem, what would you do in terms of addressing this question of an inclusive people-based process? what is it that you would want them to do? Or if you were the Europeans, or if you were the, you know, leading the Arab world, what, what, how would you look at it? Marwa, do you want to?
Marwa Hammad I think, like, if I have the power is, you know, to ensure that the women, especially us, that we are, like, in the conflict affected regions, are in the center of the peace negotiation. And, you know, to have policy-making and post-conflict rebuilding, because it's not, like, about ending, you know, the conflict. It's about, you know, also rebuild it after that. I believe that women bring unique perspective to the conflict resolution, because we focus on community needs, on long-term solution, and about reconciliation. (.) And also, I would like dismantling legal and political and economical structure that sustain inequality and conflict. We can't achieve peace when communities are braved on basic rights, like freedom of movement, education, and economic participation. So, highlighting those challenges that we face, and try to solve it, it's necessary for me, and it's a need.
Yael Braudo-Bahat Yeah. Your question reminded me what I say every time that I talk to international audience. First of all, don't give up on us. Know that there are, again, as I said before, there are thousands and tens of thousands of people working daily in our region to promote peace, and we know that it's possible. So, the world needs to know, because the world sees only fighting and war and blood, and it needs to know that there are many efforts to promote peace as well. So, please don't give up on us. If I was in charge, if I was a part of the international community, yes. So, we all know that eventually it's going to happen. Peace is going to happen. Negotiations are going to begin. And the only question that we ask, even before October 7th, definitely since, is how many lives will be lost until it begins. So, what I would have done, I would have just begun negotiations. It's possible. There is the framework that enables it. We have the partnership of, and we should have the partnership of the moderate Arab countries and Europe, I would say also the U.S., although it's highly unpredictable currently, unfortunately. We need the world to, not to pressure or not to force anyone into assigning anything or doing anything, but to gather our leaders together and begin negotiations to facilitate, to encourage, to promote, to enable this line of action. And as Mao said, we need the women around the table. We need civil society around the table because we know that without women, without civil society, the agreement that will be achieved will take much longer if achieved at all. It will be less sustainable over time. So, if we were in charge, and I allow myself to speak on behalf of both of us now, we will just begin negotiations, that's it, and make sure that women and civil society are around the table.
Sanam Thank you. And it's interesting because it's, you know, what we hear from women around the world in conflict zones, including from the Northern Irish, is that when the men were sitting at the table, they were still arguing the past. You know, what happened in 1600 and what happened in, you know, nineteen, whatever, forty-five, and so forth. We'll deserve this land, yes. Exactly, and it's going back, you know, three thousand years, whereas the women are saying, as you've repeatedly said, it's for our children. It's for the future. So, so this, I think this, this kind of, it sounds simple, but it's amazing how often peace negotiations really are, are the past informing the present to shape the future, as opposed to the future informing the present to then deal with the past, which is, you know, South Africans managed to do that, right? So that future vision. Question to, to both of you in terms of the absence of women, right, and this idea that Israeli women and Palestinian women have been, have pushed, they came up with solutions and they kept getting pushed back. Why are the men so scared of having you there as independent, you know, peace actors? Like, what's the fear of having people like you sitting at the negotiations table, uh, imagining the future?
Marwa Hammad I think they like investing in war more than investing in peace. Because, you know, war means money for them, so more, like, more profits for them. The manufacturers, all the people that, you know, send the weapons to the conflict areas. So when you sit on the negotiation table and you find the solution, when there is peace, there's no need for all these, you know, weapons and, you know, military investments. And this is, and I think the men, they want to invest there more than they want to invest in, you know, in the prosperity and the health of the communities. Yes, for our children, for the future. But I think if we do this, they will lose a lot. So, this is my opinion. (.)
Sanam Is there a vested interest in losing things? Yeah, yeah, from your side, where? (.)
Yael Braudo-Bahat I think that it's a habit or a norm that is very difficult to tackle and it's not only in our region, it's also, it's global wide. There is a backlash all over the world regarding the status of women, the rights of women, their participation in the political arena. A growing patriarchal atmosphere here in Israel. But it's very difficult to promote the idea of women around the table when there is a demise in this regard in every social sphere that you can think of.
Sanam If you were a billionaire, if you had, you know, the money and the power that comes or the freedom that comes with the kind of billion dollars that we see individual men have in the world these days, what would you each do right now?
Yael Braudo-Bahat So, three things come into my mind. First of all, I realized a few months ago while talking to my cousin that while I am working daily with Marwa and with my Palestinian colleagues and sisters, and I know that it's possible, this is a part of my day-to-day routine and work, and this gives me hope, this gives me life, this keeps me alive. I want everyone to have this experience, this knowledge that it's possible, you know, this proof. If I had so much money, first of all, I would say stop investing it in war and weapon, as Marwa said, and begin investing it in peace. But more concretely, to organize more and more and more encounters between Israelis and Palestinians to see that there are humans on the other side. One of the participants, one of the Palestinian participants in our recent Women Building Bridges program said, this program enabled me to see that there are humans on the other side and that there are difficulties and there are, you know, you are painful and hurt like we are. And we need more human encounters like this. So, this is one thing that I would invest in. The second thing would be to build the resilience of our camp, of our activists, because it is really, really exhausting to be peace builders. And some of our activists in Women Wedge Peace have been working daily in the movement without getting paid. Most of our activists are volunteers. The vast majority, I would say, are volunteers. And we need to provide support and build the resilience, because they've been working for ten and a half years daily. We need them to be stronger. And also, lastly, we need to train more men and women from civil society to sit around the negotiations table to build their skills, their knowledge, their confidence, because the table does need more generals and more politicians. It needs more people from the ground, from the communities, knowing what's needed. I think they have all the knowledge they need. They just don't know it. So, building their confidence and providing more knowledge, more skills to sit around the table and take part in negotiations. And that's it, enrich an agreement.
Marwa Hammad For me, I will start investing to have, like, feminist economy. Feminist economy is a free society. I don't want, like, the women to have, like, to earn wages only. I want them, like, to reshape the economy itself, because, you know, the foundation of true political participation, because a woman who earn her own income is a woman who votes, who leads, who speaks without fear. So, this is what I will focus on. And finally, yeah, the peace building, because this has been led, like, more and more women participation to change our community and to build peace in our own community.
Sanam For both of you, is the, not just the USAID funding cuts, but the fact that you were seeing European countries and others also reducing their overseas development assistance, is that affecting you in your region right now? Are, what, you know, are you seeing other resources or local resources, you know, wealth coming, you know, philanthropy and other ways of supporting your work? You know, what's happening in terms of the financial side? Because, as you say, you can't, it's really unfair to assume that people are going to do this year in, year out, day in, day out, voluntarily. Somebody has to, you know, somebody has to pay for the groceries, right?
Marwa Hammad Yeah, I think that in our community, like, volunteering is very hard, because, you know, we have a very high unemployment rate, and due to the war, now the situation is very hard. For example, for a family, she will think, okay, it's better, like, to pay for bread than, like, letting my son or my daughter to do volunteering. volunteering. So, yeah, for us, also as an organization, the cutoff of the programs, and, you know, to have hard guidelines to go through it, it's very hard. It's easy to have, like, a cross-border activities during, now, we can't go to Israel, because there are no permits. The Israeli, like, we can't meet except in Area C, and it's not, like, that safe for both of us. So, we are facing a lot of problems. And, you know, meeting through Zoom doesn't, like,
Yael Braudo-Bahat the same as we meet people face-to-face. I mean, the cutback. We know that many organizations are relying on such funding, and this cutback, and the Israeli prospective NGO law, it casts 80% tax on
Sanam foreign governmental. They're going to put an 80% tax on funding that comes to charities in Israel.
Yael Braudo-Bahat In Israel, from, yes, from foreign governments, from embassies, and then from USA, if it was still operating and so forth, from the EU. I know, we know that many organizations, they rely on such funding, even if we're in wage peace or not, and do not. And it's really scary, because private funding and private philanthropy, we need it more, and we'll have more competition over very scarce resources. And we know that the economic situation in the U.S. now, and I think globally, is unstable. So, there is a reduction in disregard as well. So, yes, we don't know. I mean, many organizations are going to suffer from this, and many organizations, I am afraid, will be shut down because of this. And we need a vibrant liberal civil society in our region to succeed. So, it's really scary. We continue. We are proud of having our public, the Israeli public, supporting us through a crowdfunding campaign that we hold annually. We have private donors that are with us since the beginning of the movement, and now also, really, it's very scary, the situation currently. Thank you. And it's, you know, one of the things
Sanam that we're seeing, again, both from the U.S. context, but internationally, is that this work, again, is so invisible in the public cultural sphere, right? That when you say peacebuilding, people don't relate to it, right? Exactly. It seems less urgent.
Yael Braudo-Bahat Ironic. And I definitely understand, but we are also dying here, and we will die.
Sanam And even, I mean, you know, people don't believe that civil society or civilians, ordinary people like you, and I mean, you are all extraordinary people. But essentially, we're talking about just non-political, non-military people can step in and have a say and make an impact in terms of peacebuilding. And if you don't have peace, that the humanitarian crisis or the hunger will carry on. You know, the war keeps kind of creating new victims, right? But, and so we have to get to the source of it, which is, which is stopping the war. And that's what you guys are trying to do. It's, it's, it's absolutely urgent. It's the most urgent thing that can possibly happen. And yet there's kind of a lack of visibility for your work.
Yael Braudo-Bahat Yeah. And then we can, we'll be able to invest as a country, as countries, we will be able to invest in, in health, in, in, in welfare and education and everything that is needed now on the ground. And it just, uh, uh, being, uh, pushed aside because of security, uh, considerations. And I, I don't disregard the security threats. There are security threats, but, uh, but the way to, to, to, to, to tackle them is through diplomacy and not through a ongoing and endless war. (.)
Marwa Hammad What fundamentally gives you hope? That gives me hope. Okay. There is no choice like to have no hope. We are the hope. So we are the one who like, you know, we are the caregivers of, you know, our families, our communities. Each woman is a hope for me because, you know, carrying on and continuing is, you know, something not everybody can do it. Uh, I will give you like a small story. One of our participants, uh, she's from Gaza and she's part of the peacebuilding programs. Uh, she lost 30 members of her family. One of them is her brother. And she is still continue in our peacebuilding program. She still meet Israeli because she told us, okay, I lost enough of my beloved ones. I don't want to lose more. So this is what gives me hope that, okay, can't keep looking to the past. We should look to the future. We should like serve the, the, the people that we have still in our lives. And this is what we are doing. Thank you. And yeah, last word for you.
Yael Braudo-Bahat What gives you hope? Uh, first of all, my Palestinian sisters give me hope because I know how hard it is for them to, to be peace builders and to be in touch with Israel. It's much easier for me to be in touch with Mawa than, uh, the other way around. And, uh, every time I see them, every time I work with, with them, I, I, I, I get hope. I know it's possible. And, uh, looking at what happened in the world in the past, uh, where women, uh, succeeded in promoting peace, in promoting, uh, uh, reconciliation, you, yourselves and I've talked to probably many peace builders who succeeded, uh, that we can do it as well. So, so, so, and we know that in, in very, very desperate times, uh, good things happened. Uh, we say that, you know, revolutions happen, uh, in desperate times. So we're doing the revolution.
Sanam We give ourselves hope all the time. Thank you. Thank you both very, very much for this conversation. Um, really an honor and a pleasure to speak to you and, and I hope to join you whenever it's possible,
Soleh um, both in Palestine and in Israel. Hi, Sosie. How are you doing? I'm good. Just got the
Sanam notification. The Pope just died. I can't, it's so sad. Crazy. Yeah. I can't believe it. Like,
Soleh all the good guys are going. It's just stupid. I mean, yeah. He was progressive for a Pope,
Sanam I suppose. Right. He was. Yeah. Yeah. And, and he was, he's been so, um, consistent. Not the, yeah. And on, on the question of Gaza, which I think has been so important because we don't have anyone else who's been doing that. Um, but it, it, yeah. I'm like, the good guys go. And then we're
Soleh seem to be left with like... What did Vance do, right? Yeah. He was the last person to official visit with him? Do we propagate some conspiracy theories? Is it, is it all over TikTok that, that... No, I got my New York Times notification. Thank
Sanam you very much. I see. I see. It's because you're highbrow, aren't you? (..) Mm-hmm. Um, no, the other thing I was, I was thinking about in the news recently was the fact that there's Chinese companies no longer have that confidentiality clause about what, you know, which, which, uh, European brands they, you know, stuff they make for European brands and things. Mm-hmm. And I was like, wow, you know, now you can buy your... (.)
Soleh Well, there's all these videos of the warehouses...
Sanam ...for five bucks or something.
Soleh There's all these videos of the warehouses trying to, like, sell you directly. They're like, no, buy your five pound, you know, Hermes Kelly. And it's from the same manufacturer. //S01: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.//
Sanam Boba used to call them genuine fakes, the fake ones, like the ones that you see on the, you know, in markets and stuff that look pretty good.
Soleh They'd say, like, Googie instead of Gucci or something.
Sanam Yeah, genuine fakes, yeah. Or funny, you know, do you remember there was, like, or funny and... Anyway, that, it did make me giggle a bit, but, but I was, it's just, everything is in so much flux. And, um, so our conversation that we just had on another complicated crisis. And we covered these issues in season one with the two podcasts, with the rabbi and, uh, with Muhammad. But this time around, I wanted to talk to the women who are actively involved in peacebuilding within themselves and across their communities. (.) Because that's kind of my, as you know, that's, that's, you know, my bag of... That's your thing. ...work, really. That's my thing. Um, what did you think of the conversation?
Soleh I thought having them together was, was interesting and kind of, that they had, it was like this, kind of the same conclusions, but they obviously were coming from very different backgrounds and, and seeing that was kind of, but then obviously working together, um, was, was interesting and, like, quite powerful in a way. Um, I mean, I think the most shocking part was probably when Marwa was talking about the, their partners that they'd lost in Gaza, which I guess is, is one of those things where it's like, yeah, of course, of course they've lost people if they're working in Gaza, but it's still kind of crazy to hear it as like, I don't know, a real thing in a way like that. Um, like so close to, to home, I suppose. (.) And that they still have 500 women working in Gaza and that they're still doing so much. and it was like, pretty crazy that they, that they had all these things like, like right before October 7th, like, you know, doing so much. And then they still kept going. Like, it's not that they let that kind of just tear it down, but I mean, I can't even imagine what the, like, the shift and, and like kind of the, the mind, like the mental part of it too, that's just like, wow, you know, we've been doing all this and suddenly kind of half of it is thrown out and
Sanam it's just, yeah, pretty crazy. It, it's, um, I'm so glad you said that because, (..) you know, this has been for it, for me, it's very close and personal, obviously, because it's the kind of work that I've been doing for nearly 30 years with, with these kinds of women. Like, you know, it, it's in Israel and Palestine, but also, um, in Syria and in Afghanistan when, you know, when I, when we spoke with Wajma recently. Um, and it's exactly this point that, that you've made, which is you don't realize how close it is. You don't, you don't think of individual people like, you know, we hear the news or the statistics, I guess, but nobody's like lifting the lid and saying, well, how are people coping or who are these people? And, and when I say peace builders, you know, people don't really understand what we, what we mean. If, if, if we said, oh, they were teachers or if they were, I don't know, humanitarian workers or journalists, for example, you know, you know what that is because you have one in your own, you know, you've, you've heard about it, or you've seen, or you, you know, you've, you have communities, but to say peace builder sounds like such a nice, you know, sweet thing. And it really is tough work, right? I mean, on both sides, I mean, after October 7th, uh, for, for Yael as an Israeli from her own community to still be engaging with Palestinians is incredibly hard. They lost one of their own members, one of their founding members, Vivian Silver. Um, uh, she was killed in the Hamas attacks. And then subsequently over the last, however, 18, you know, 16 months, the, yeah, the, the persistent violence against, in Gaza. And, and we never hear about how ordinary people are coping or what they're doing or these, you know, these 500 women, who are they, what are they doing? How do they, who are they helping or, you know, how do they stay connected? I mean, oh yeah, these are the stories that are so invisible. And, and it, I'm glad that you sort of, for you, it was also like a,
Soleh an aha moment. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's just, you know, I think it's hard to, like, as you say, to make things like personal, I mean, just because something isn't, it's a very kind of classic fallacy, (.) I guess. That's like, you know, because I don't understand, I can't sympathize and it's not something like that, but it does help you to sympathize like when you, um, or to like feel it more personally, I suppose, when you kind of, um, understand a little bit more clearly, um, what exactly is going on, um, or like, you know, on a person to person kind of level. Um. Yeah. Or when you hear, (..)
Sanam them speaking about themselves, right, that it's not just, uh, it's not just a reporter or, uh. Yeah,
Soleh it's not some, it's like first, yeah, firsthand report of kind of what is like, what their own experience or what their lived experience is as, you know, as kind of the, or whatever. But yeah, like the firsthand kind of recounts of like, what's, what they're actually seeing people that they like personally know. And, um, yeah, it's pretty kind of, uh, impactful.
Sanam I think, um, that there is hope. I mean, did it, did it give you a sense that, wow, this, this can, this problem can be resolved actually, or, or was it, did it feel like?
Soleh I mean, even just the fact, I think that they were like, yeah, we were doing it. And then October 7th happened and all this kind of horrible stuff, you know, they lost, they lost people and everything kind of took so many steps backwards, it seemed. Um, and yet they're still kind of, they're still going. I feel like something like that is already kind of pretty hopeful in a way. Like in a way it's like exactly the opposite of hopeful because like, wow, they were doing all that. And then October 7th still happened. But you know, I guess you can see
Sanam everything, everything both ways. Which makes the work of these two groups, women of the sun from the Palestinian side and women wage peace from the Israeli side, that much more courageous in my, in my view, because you're going against, they were already going against some of their own communities, instincts and, and rationale, you know, meant for very, very good reason. Um, many would argue, but to continue it, um, is after, after October 7th is, you know, what I would like to think is that this is the pathway to peace. Like they should, the, the bombs will stop, the, the attacks will have to stop at some point. People will have to learn to live together, you know, and, and instead of going back to the politicians and military leaders sitting in some room, you know, a bunch of old guys and talking to each other all the time, it should be asking these women, these women are willing and able to talk to each other, to get together, um, and see the future as if they're sitting on the same side of the table and looking forward as opposed to the, again, that the sort of the traditional dynamic,
Soleh what, of what we see. Assuming that they're working against each other.
Sanam Where, and also just the, the way the table is laid, you know, every time you see negotiations of any form, you know, one side, one delegation is, you know, on one side of the table and the other one is the other and it's very confrontational. It's like, well, imagine if they just had a round table and they mixed everybody up and, and yeah, or, or had one table that you, you know, looked out, you know, into the future and. Yeah. Last supper style, right? Yeah, yeah, exactly. You know, it's the last supper style. Exactly. Um, uh, it, it just, yeah. And, and said, you've got to talk, you know, we're not letting you out into, you know, send them up to space and let them, you know, put them on a plane around the world. Let's not get into the Katy Perry space, space flight. Oh yeah, on that, that, that was another, that was another thing.
Soleh It's so ridiculous. I mean, it's so like incredibly stupid. No, I don't know. Like, you know, cancelling out our, one single one of them is cancelling out our entire lives of trying to live in an environmentally friendly way for her to go up there and wave a daisy around. Like, come on. And they call them astronauts. It's like they did nothing.
Sanam Yeah. Yeah. I, I found it also particularly, um, distasteful in the sense that they're then
Soleh firing all the female astronauts from NASA. So it's like, okay, come on, you know? Yeah. Yeah.
Sanam I mean, they, they've erased all of the history of the women in NASA who contributed to space travel.
Soleh It's just like probably the most out of touch thing that I've seen in a long time. and I feel like I've, that's not a low bar, you know? (..)
Sanam Yeah, yeah, exactly. It was, it was, yeah, it was, it was insane. And, and also, I mean, the whole, the outfits and, and the, the shape of that stupid rocket. I'm like, I'm like, really? (.) Did they not see it? Did they not? Anyway, it's, it's, it's gonna stay in on the internet forever. And it's, uh, Yeah. Um, yeah. So, so, so yes, you have that side of what's been happening and then you have, um, the story, uh, on the ground of what is going on and what women are trying to do. Actually, that's a really interesting juxtaposition that you want feminism, go and talk to, you know, Marwa and Yael and, and, and folks like them, um, uh, instead of shooting. (.)
Soleh Yeah. People for no reason.
Sanam Into the, into the stratosphere. Um, okay. We covered a lot there. Okay, my love. Um, I hope you have a good week. School is still out.
Soleh Yeah. I mean, I'm going to lab. Okay.
Sanam Talk to you later. Bye. Bye. (.........) My thanks to the Bijan Reisar Foundation, my own organization, ICANN, and Africa Digital Audio for making these podcasts possible. If you have ideas for topics or for people that I should invite and have a conversation with, please let me know at info at icanpeacework.org. Info at icanpeacework.org. You can also follow the events on our newsletter, which is on the ICANN website, same address. I really hope that the conversations, the ideas, the solutions, the hope and the inspiration that you've heard in these conversations keep you going over the next week and that you join us again. So stay well and see you soon. And I hope to hear from you. Thank you. Bye bye.