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Ece Temelkuran You see all these people falling in line without being forced to do so, not even due to the fear that is imposed upon them, but just to schmooze in with the power. That's when you start thinking, I don't know, do they want fascism? These are very dangerous questions. (.....)
Sanam That's Etchettamalkur, a journalist and bestselling author of How to Lose Your Country, Seven Steps from Democracy to Fascism. (..) Hey everyone, this is Sanam Naraghi Anderlini with If You Were In Charge. I had a lot of fun talking to the people that I hosted in Season 1 about the big issues around us. We've taken some time to prepare Season 2 for you, and I wanted to come back and continue these conversations because the world has radically changed around us. At least those of us who live between the U.S. and Europe have certainly felt some significant changes with the new administration in the U.S. And part of the reason why I wanted to continue these discussions was that there is such a depth of pessimism and despair about everything, whether it's about climate change, dealing with the world, what's going to happen to Gaza, the Ukraine question, we're watching it. But people are switching off. Many, many of my friends and colleagues that I talk to are just in despair and they don't want to listen to the news. And I completely get that personally. That said, I also know that switching off and feeling despair is part of the way in which civic space gets closed. We kind of withdraw from the spaces ourselves and allow the spaces to erase and shrink. And I think that it's really important for us to be mindful, or at least for me personally, I feel that when I talk to people who are still trying to solve problems, it gives me inspiration and energy and gets me out of bed to carry on doing my work. Our work at ICANN has not been easy, and it's definitely not getting any easier with the various conflicts that we see and the complexity that we see around us. But when I speak to my Afghan colleagues, and I have a guest, who's one of my longtime partners, or my Syrian partners, who you'll hear from in the season, what they are doing at the front lines of their communities and societies, and the women and young people with whom they are also working with, just kind of make you pause and say, well, what can I do? How else can I help make a difference? And the minute you frame the question in that way, what is the little piece of it that I can do for myself and for people? It just opens up so many possibilities. And as a Persian, I always go back to sort of sources of poetry, and Rumi has a great line that says, if you step onto the path, you will find the way. If you take the first step, that the rest of the steps kind of come to you. So this is, in a way, my contribution and my one step. And I hope that you enjoy the conversations that are coming up. This season, I also want to make a real effort from my side to hear from you as well about the issues that you care about, the questions that you might want me to ask, and the people that you think I should be speaking to. Definitely, you can email us at info at icanpeacework.org, info at icanpeacework.org, with questions or suggestions. A newsletter link will also be added to the podcast links when we put them out. And we will also share with you other resources based on the conversations that we have. So for each podcast, we'll have other resources that you can engage with. So many things coming up. I hope that you will join me. I hope you'll enjoy the conversations that I have with my guests and with Sole, who is joining me at the end of each episode to reflect. With that, my guest this week is Ece Tamalkaran. She is a journalist and author of the bestselling book, How to Lose Your Country, Seven Steps from Democracy to Fascism. It's a very telling and very prescient and timely, unfortunately, book and topic for us to be discussing today, especially since even in Turkey now, we are seeing a change in events, the arrest of the mayor of Istanbul, the arrest of 1,100 people overnight that we're hearing about, and the slide into authoritarianism at an accelerated pace. Here is Ece Tamalkaran. (....) It's really a joy to have you, my friend. Thank you, Sana. Yeah, lovely to see you. And just to say, you wrote a book called How to Lose Your Country, Seven Steps from a Democracy to Dictatorship. So I just want to sort of frame our conversation around what your experience was and then come on to your latest projects and stuff. So how are you doing and where are you right now?
Ece Temelkuran I'm in Berlin, belly of the beast. Well, in terms of far right, rise of far right and fascism. It's funny that you say this subtitle, this is the old subtitle for the book, and it has a story. It's not to correct you, but to tell this story, I'm telling this, How to Lose a Country, Seven Steps from Democracy to Dictatorship was this old title. And then lately, my editors came to the conclusion that it's time to change the title to Seven Steps from Democracy to Fascism. Years and years, I used this word, but there was this reaction to the word. People shied away from the word and so on. And finally, we're there. The republication of book, you know, very recent from Canongate was with that subtitle, Seven Steps to Fascism. I'm in Germany. Like in many places in the world, in Europe and beyond, we are witnessing the rise of fascism. The difference being, I think, I don't want to jump into this right away, but the difference is I think people take it serious, more seriously here than in other places. They don't joke about it. Germans are not very humorous people anyway, but they don't joke about it in terms of they take it.
Sanam They have their own sense of humor. So just for our, you know, again, for people who haven't read the book or who will want to read the book, one of the things that you mention as one of the steps is the idea of real people and unreal people. So people who are accepted and people who are not. And when I saw that, it reminded me, and also many of the events right now happening in the U.S. also remind me of 1979, Iran, and what my parents' generation went through with the revolution there and the labeling that happened there. You know, the elite were suddenly called the Talguti, which kind of has this glitzy sort of sense to it, or corruptors of the earth. You know, that was a religious term that was laid, put on them. And it's basically, I don't know, it's like dehumanizing, right? Is that something that you see, I mean, you experienced in Turkey, and then are you seeing that in Germany or in the context of the U.S., the discussions that you're hearing?
Ece Temelkuran Absolutely, in the U.S. So, yeah, that's the first step. And that is how they create a movement. They manufacture this idea of realness and unrealness to divide people. And they manufacture a victimhood out of it, saying that we have been oppressed and now it's time for us to stand up, take over the power from the corrupt elite. And that association between the leader who says these words and the masses and the rage that is mobilized and organized finally form a movement, a party, whatever, to start walking towards power. The thing is, you know, how to lose a country was, many people think that I wrote a book about Turkey. It's not about Turkey, that book. It takes Turkey as a template, perhaps, but then it looks around the globe to see the global common patterns of rising fascism. And I wrote that book for this reason only. I mean, like, there is a common pattern, and these are the steps that will happen to you guys in the Western world. And you can recognize what you're living here in this book so that you can stop it at some point before coming to the seventh and the final step. The idea was not to talk about Turkey only, but as you very well put, the idea was to talk about the experience, political experience, that accumulated in the global south. (.) Because we have experienced this. Democracy did not begin its demise from the center, Europe or United States, but from the periphery. And we were the periphery countries in that sense. So democracy started, you know, crumbling from the edges, so to speak, edges of the world. So coming from the edge, you and me, we know that how it will happen. And perhaps that's why it depresses us more than the others, because we know that after a certain point, it's so, so difficult to reverse the current, to stop it, to stop the rise of fascism and the spread of fascism.
Sanam A couple of things. One is, I think you're absolutely right that, you know, I work in this universe of international development, peace, conflict, etc. And there is still this sense that these problems happen over there and we're somehow immune, you know. And I look at it and I'm saying, you know, the rise of jihadi extremism that we saw with, whether it's with Boko Haram or ISIS and the way they did it, you know, locally rooted, micro-targeting, going after people's hearts and, you know, grievances, aspirations. That's what those white supremacists are doing as well. But there's a tendency for people in the West to somehow think that those problems are over there and somehow our systems are more robust. You know, people are still saying things like, oh, well, you know, the midterm elections will come, you know, in two years' time. And again, some of us are saying, well, maybe there won't be any midterms. I mean, you know, and we don't want to sound crazy and doomsday-ish, but as you say, you've seen it, you've lived it. So in Turkey or when you were going through it, and especially as a journalist, what were the other signs that retrospectively, I mean, you've written about it in the book, but what were the other signs that retrospectively now you think about it and you think, should we have reacted differently at the time? Was there a resistance that we should have put up?
Ece Temelkuran I was recently at Munich Security Conference, and then as I have always been asked, I was asked by the moderator, who was a lovely man, by the way, but he asked me, why do you use the word fascism? And I said, why don't you? Because I believe people do not use the word fascism because when they do, they have to do something about it. This goes for this exceptionalism, arrogance thing as well. When they accept that this is happening to them, they have to do something about it. But it is better, more convenient for them to take shelter in the thought that, no, no, no, we are immune to this. Our institutions are robust and so on. It is partly true, though. You know, yes, I mean, like, for instance, in Germany, right before the election, CDU, Christian Conservatives, and IFD, the far right, made a, you know, ad hoc coalition, so to speak, about an immigration law. And the immigration law was rejected by the Supreme Court. So, yes, the institutions are robust, but our institutions were more robust than they are before this thing came over us. We are not crazy people, we are not like, you know, because there is this thing, oh, those crazy countries, like India, Turkey, I mean, like, God knows what they are after. Or, you know, when it comes to Italy, they say, oh, that's kind of Mediterranean crazy, like, we can. So, there is no such thing, as you said, like, there is no exceptionalism in this. And we do not have the luxury to have the arrogance, nor to this self-conciling thoughts about immunity. What are the other signs, I mean, like, there are seven signs, seven steps, let's say. And the second one has already, for instance, happened in the United States. It's the disruption of language and terrorizing the political sphere. Trump did this thanks to Elon Musk. He had the most mighty communication tool on the planet. And he used it to terrorize the political language and to disrupt the political discussion. (.) So, suddenly, people found themselves in different realities, so to speak. They created a reality collapse. And then the third one, which is happening at the moment in the US, for instance, is the removal of shame from the political sphere. The shamelessness, I think many people in the United States, as far as I can see, are paralyzed with this enormous amount of shamelessness pouring from White House. And it is such a paralyzing thing, because when you lose your moral bearings, when they are absolutely blatantly dismissed, you cannot know, you know, you don't really know where to refer to the speed of things. When someone says to you, okay, I'm cutting the funds all over the world, and I don't care about the dying people, you know, starvation, AIDS, or whatever. (.) Now, you cannot easily come up with an answer to this, because this removes the entire moral reference system of humanity. That kind of shamelessness leaves you speechless, and that paralyzation is one of the, you know, mid-steps in the second step, let's say. And then there is, or the third step, shame of removal of shame. And then there is the disruption of political mechanism and judicial mechanism. There is designing your own citizen. And then there is a step that Britain enjoyed quite a long time, which is laughing at the horror. You know, making jokes about it, making it humorous, because when you laugh about it, you have this false sense of immunity. I'm like, as long as I can laugh about it, it cannot really touch me.
Sanam As much as we put the focus right now on Trump and Elon Musk, which is the sort of accelerated version of everything, part of the shamelessness, part of the lack of shame problem, is that we had Biden and his administration, and their enabling of the horrific violence and genocidal violence in Gaza, right? So, you know, it's like the issue of the opposition, if you want, or the supposed progressive center or progressive left. I don't even know where they situate themselves on the political spectrum. But the fact that they are complicit in so many of these ways in which, as you say, shame is no longer a factor. Shame and honor are no longer a factor. You know, whether it's because of the wars that they perpetrated, or buying into the extreme capitalism and extreme wealth. Did you see that in Turkey as well, that the opposition kind of doesn't really have a leg to stand on, basically? Like, who is, you know, who are we trying to sort of reach out to, to say, okay, here is an alternative that one could have?
Ece Temelkuran Perfect question. Perfect. I mean, like, it's so true. (.) Gaza was the last act for the Western world in the big theater of moral superiority. That's done. It's the end of something. Several things, but it's the end of this idea of moral superiority. That's no longer there. I don't know if Biden personally is, you know, that government can be only put into account, but it's an overall thing, I guess. But let me put it this way. (..) The shamelessness, and when I was writing the book, I made it very clear that I put, you know, I drew a connection between neoliberal morality and the birth of fascism within this system for quite a long time after the Cold War. We have been repeatedly fed the same propaganda that totalitarianism cannot come from a free market economy, that it only can come from a socialist, oppressive regime. Whereas neoliberalism with its morality or lack of morality is actually in very good sync with fascism, where my analysis separates from many of the analysis of current day fascism. I say that this was already, this kind of new fascism was already embedded in the neoliberal system. What we are seeing today is this seed of fascism growing and coming out and making its debut without any sugarcoating of human rights, rule of law, democracy, and so on. They don't, the system doesn't need these things anymore. We can see it from Elon Musk and Trump.
Sanam And it's interesting because if you look at the history of the rise of the Nazis in Germany, the first people to give them their checks were the industrialists, right? So, so that coming together, I mean, we, I remember there was an event just, you know, before the elections, I think last summer, and it was the same thing. It was Mario Largo and it was all the big, big names and the big money and so forth. So, so, so you're right. I mean, it's all, these two things have gone together, but somehow at the end of the Cold War, we were subtly told that, yes, you know, this capitalism won, but then it became this extreme version. And now this idea that we have white supremacy or identity-based movements taking over the state, right? So, so the authoritarianism and kind of the idea of the white man, I mean, they even say it like that, right? Like they don't even pretend that these two forces have merged together and you're all sitting there thinking, you know, you've just fired the most prominent in the States, the most decorated, most experienced chief of staff of the, of the military. And pretty much because he was a black man or, you know, there was a, they, they named these people and it's like, they're being fired, but what, they're not being fired because of incompetence or something. They're not even being fired because of political views. They're saying it in terms of this woman, this African-American and the companies and organizations are following suit, right? So, so the government says no more diversity, equity, and inclusion. And before they even come after them, they're shutting down, you know, and, and you're like, yeah. (..)
Ece Temelkuran No, this is the thing. Many people think that fascism is like a lens in a country, you know, alien spaceship, like a phenomena completely for, no, it comes from, you know, bottom as much as it trickles down from powerhouses like White House. I wrote a letter to Americans right after the election and probably they were too paralyzed with fear and astonishment and, you know, sadness that they might have missed it. So I'm telling to Americans now what I've written in that letter, it was published in Guardian. I said, you know, I said, you know, I said two things, which applies to what you have told, two things. Don't be, you know, be dazzled with the spectacle of Trump, just pay attention to the institutions because issues will be, the content of the institutions will be changed, which is happening in an unprecedented speed in Washington, I know. And when institutions are emptied, it's so easy to get to the other steps of fascism. And the second thing I told them, which is perhaps too, was too early for them to understand, but I think they're understanding it now. The most disappointing thing about, or most, let's say, painful thing about fascism is that it, you see all these people falling in line without being forced to do so. So that does not only leave the institutions, democracy, astray, orphaned, but also it actually ruins your faith in humanity. Because you see your friends even saying, oh, that's not, it's not so bad. I mean, like. It's okay. Or don't talk. //S00: Come on.// We can, we can, you know, adapt to this. We can, we can talk to them and so on. And when you keep on seeing this, those people, not even due to the fear that is imposed upon them, but just to schmooze in with the power. That's when you start thinking, you know, it's humans, are humans stupid? Are humans, I don't know, do they want fascism? Maybe they are, maybe they like this. Maybe they deserve this. These are very dangerous questions. And these questions go so deep into the human morals, philosophy, and also it affects your heart, like as in your emotional being as well, which then makes you somehow retreat politically.
Sanam Seeing people either retreat and saying, oh, I just can't deal with this. I can't watch the news. I can't hear it anymore. Or self-censoring. Don't want to talk about these issues. You know, please don't talk. You know, this kind of thing of self-protection. And we have an expression in Farsi that the bowl, you know, it's as if the bowl is hotter than the soup that's going into it. You know, sort of more.
Ece Temelkuran That's a great expression.
Sanam You know, but sometimes I think, well, some of these people will not be affected. //S02: Yeah.// If we imagine that we live in a snow globe, they're somewhere in the middle and they're pretty solid and their life doesn't get affected. But many of them are going to start to hit the edges in different ways as a system closes in on society. Oh, that's true. They're going to feel it. //S02: That's true.// And it's going to be too late. It's going to be when they came after, you know, they came after my neighbor and I didn't say anything and they came after my friend and I didn't say anything and they came after me and I, you know, there was no one to say, you know, to go to kind of thing. But it's really, again, it feels as if it's really hard to get people engaged. And then the biggest question, and then what do they do about it? Right. So what is it that people are meant to do at this point? I look at the comedians and on the one hand, I'm like, well, thank God they're still there and they're making fun and at least they're saying what's going on. Right. I don't think the news is necessarily doing very good coverage.
Ece Temelkuran Yeah.
Sanam But again, one of the things that I experienced in Iran in 1986 when I went back was that people were very open. They were criticizing all over the place. And I remember thinking during the Shah's time, people didn't speak so much. So it's almost as if the system also knows, yeah, you just give a little bit of air for people to vent. The comedians can say what they want and it all makes it look as if things are normal, you know, but it really isn't. The institutions have been completely corrupted. What would you, again, thinking back to your experience in Turkey with your friends and, but also now in Germany and in the States, what is it that people should be doing? Is it mass right?
Ece Temelkuran There's a good, there's a very good test for it. There's a very good test. By the way, How to Lose a Country is written like a mock manual for a dictator. So the sixth title was Let Them Laugh at the Horror, giving space for them to laugh a bit, to vent out a bit and so on. So if your laughter doesn't hurt the dictator and you can understand when he's hurt because he gets angry, then you're laughing on your own and perhaps you're laughing at yourself at that point. And you're right. I mean, like there's always be, there always be spaces, like little pockets of life where you can do this and then you feel, at least I can do this. And those pockets of life will be the places where you feel the dignity of being a human being. (..) I'm saying this word because it's important about the other things that you talked about. You said all these people, some of them will not be affected. Very powerful, very rich people. Yes, they will not be affected in the way that I will or you will. (.) That's a different reality they're living in. I'll tell you more about it later. But then, if you want to change things, and that's why I wrote together a manifesto against the heartless world, if you want to change things, I think we have to tell people that you are losing your dignity. Look at yourself. You're, you know, hiding away to make jokes about the dictator. You cannot even speak freely. You're suppressing yourself. You're suppressing your dignity. And you are unhappy. You can have all the villas, all the yachts, all the whatever power you have, but still, all this, you know, rich, richness doesn't allow you to speak. So, you have no dignity. (.) They are hurting your dignity. This kind of politics, fascism, is hurting your dignity. I think that is the button, so to speak, in human soul that we have to press.
Sanam It's interesting.
Ece Temelkuran Especially for those who are like, let's not talk about it, those people.
Sanam I love what you're saying, because it's, again, those of us who have lived through or understand these things really take our freedom of expression very seriously. It's a huge privilege. But I also feel that it's a responsibility. It is. It's like, it's one thing, you know, it's one thing to live in the West and so I have the right. But when they start to come after either those who can't speak because they have fewer rights and are much more vulnerable or the edge of it is coming close to you, it's a responsibility as a citizen to speak out and say, this is unjust or this is the rule of bad law or this goes against international human rights norms. And I feel that that's also often missing.
Ece Temelkuran The thing is, Sanam, throughout the years, I noticed that these words do not move people, like, you know, international norms, human rights declaration, this and that. It doesn't mean much to them because they have seen a system, as you said earlier, who is constantly hypocritical. Who do not really feel binded with this, you know, all these values and so on. That's why I think those concepts lost their power along the way after the Cold War, after 90s especially, because the reality of life was so unequal that the promise of democracy, equality, became so nonsense. And several other concepts, such as human rights, such as freedom of expression, became absolutely nonsense. So I am not sure those concepts work anymore. That's why I keep going back to dignity. Americans especially, they see democracy through the lens of freedom. Their references always are about freedom. They have this, you know, very strong emphasis on that concept, understandably. I mean, it goes back to their origin story, so to speak. And when they do that, the word fascism do not mean them too much. They say, well, we have our freedoms still, so there cannot be fascism. But then fascism is not only about limiting the freedoms. It's about removing your dignity as a human being.
Sanam Even when we think about the concept of freedom, because if your health care is tied to your job, right? (.)
Ece Temelkuran Yeah. //S02: But they don't think about that kind of freedom, as you know.//
Sanam It becomes, they don't think about that because they're in, you know, the entire, it's a modernized version of intended labor in somewhere. You know, you work somewhere, your health care, your child's health care, if you want to have a baby, if you don't have that job, you know, where, how on earth are you going to get the medical care? And so if something horrific happens in your work environment, you don't really say anything about it because you have so much to lose, right? So I'm like, what freedom is there? Okay, you get to, you know, you know, maybe you get to go out and be free to dress how you want or, you know. //S02: Exactly.// You know, bread and circus, maybe. I don't, but it's, but I, when you break it down, you're thinking, where is the freedom, actually? Because it's, the system is so embedded with the neoliberal and the, and the idea that corporations are king, basically.
Ece Temelkuran I mean, like, one of the things I think we must do, our generation should do, we must tell about the history, near history of politics to the young people. Because especially in the United States, they do not know about the incredibly glorious workers' movement, American workers' movement, union movements, and so on. They don't know how this kind of life was imposed on them to make it look like it's the given order. It's the natural state of humanity. How they were made to forget that neoliberalism is an ideology, not the reality of natural life. This is just an ideology. We can find another one. In order to say this, I think we have to remind them how this ideology was imposed on humanity, especially Americans, as the natural state of things, state of affairs. (.) No, you don't have to live in the survival mode constantly. You don't have to get up terrified, as Jeff Bezos told to his workers. You cannot, you don't have to, I mean, like, you mustn't live in this environment of terror all the time just to be able to eat and, you know, live, whatever.
Sanam Or, you know, I sometimes compare, say, Starbucks to, you know, going to cafes in Italy. I'm like, you go to Rome and every corner there is a little coffee shop and there, you know, it's gone from father to son or mother to daughter or whatever it is. And it's not, the mentality isn't, well, if I own this coffee shop, I now have to own this, the next one, and the next one, and monopolize and, you know, erase anybody else out of the picture. And that's growth, right? It's like the company has to have growth. I'm like, what does that mean? Why does there have to be constantly growth and consumption, but not even growth to share? It's growth that funnels upwards often, right? It's the sharing part of it. They tell us they're sharing, but when you look at the numbers and you look at the economics, it's not really there. So, yeah, so it comes back, what kind of freedom are we talking about, really? Question for you. So, we're seeing all of this. You've lived through it. You lost your country. I mean, you had to leave Turkey. If you were in charge right now, and I'm not even sure in charge of what, frankly, but if you wanted to, if you were the person who was giving advice, yeah, to America or to the progressive center and the alternative, the parties, whether it's in Germany or in England or in Holland, because we're seeing these forces everywhere. What would you say to the political leaders, to the media elite and the media that's reporting on these things, to the guys and the companies and to the public? What would you be advising them right now?
Ece Temelkuran Advising is one thing. I thought you were going to ask me what if you were in charge. //S00: No, the fun part of advising is...//
Sanam If you were in charge, if you were the ultimate, yeah, that's why not, why not?
Ece Temelkuran The guys have to listen, otherwise I don't feel the motivation to speak anymore, to be honest. Well, I should tell them to put dignity at the center of their political narrative, because extreme inequality did not only, do not only starve people, but it also removes their dignity. And dignity is the wane that progressive politics have to tap into today, everywhere in the world, by the way, not only United States or Europe, but India as well, or Turkey. Dignity, they removed your dignity, you are not counted as human beings, and you have to get back your dignity. That must be the central message, I think. And also, this will sound a little bit hippie-ish, perhaps, but actually it is a political tool that I wish progressive politics used more often, that is radical love. This worked in Turkey, that's why I'm saying this, I mean, like, when countries, when societies are divided, polarized, well, polarization is a word that, you know, we have to think about. But anyway, when there is this us and them, we have to be willing to show radical love to the other side as well. We have to be patient enough, compassionate enough, to tell them that their dignity as well is broken by the system. So that radical, that kind of radical love approach in politics is crucial at this point. I find it very hard not to be sarcastic about this, love, radical love, and so on. But actually, we've seen it work in Turkey, especially with the mayors, who are from opposition parties. They warn the cities, not only, but mainly saying that we are not coming back, coming to power to take revenge. This is for all of you. This is for all of us. You are hurting as well, you know, referring to the supporters of the regime. (.) So that is a political, not only political narrative, but philosophically, it's a great takeoff point, radical love. That I would advise and to put dignity. And then more, you know, let's say more factually, I think I would tell them to be clearer and to admit that we are defeated. We are defeated people, we are defeated side of the story, and we have to be clear about that. Otherwise, people know what's fake. You know, you're faking glory, they know it.
Sanam I was going to say that it's admitting, but what I also find extraordinary is the inability of politicians to say, I'm sorry, I got it wrong. Right, like this idea of an apology, and I think that that goes a long way in enabling people to sort of say, okay, they're trying to be authentic, or now I get it. You know, I find so often, whether it's in domestic politics or even in international organizations and things, everyone's saying, well, we've done this. And, you know, we've spent X amount, I don't know, working on child, as you say, you know, children's rights or, you know, health care and poverty. And I'm like, okay, so if you've done this, and we're still in the same mess, or things are worse, can we look at it and admit where we may have gone wrong in the way you've done this work, right? And that ability to just be honest about what works and what doesn't, and where we've gone wrong, I think is a real problem, because it becomes a weapon for the other side, right? To say they're corrupt, or they're useless, or, you know, it's...
Ece Temelkuran Exactly. You know what, when you're saying these things, I'm thinking of Bernie Sanders, to be honest. He was being very honest. He was being very clear. He was talking about dignity. But then American Democrats were too afraid, or whatever, to support him. That was a movement growing. That was something. And it was, something was going to come out of it, for sure. Because, you know, the other advice I would give to, you know, Democrats of the world, or like, you know, social Democrats of Europe, Democrats of America, is to go left, baby.
Sanam The endangered species that we are.
Ece Temelkuran Go left, baby. Go left, baby. I mean, be clear what you want. Say it. Inequality. Say it. We want more tax on wealth, and so on and so forth. Say it. Don't be afraid. The old world order is gone. It's, you know, we don't have to mince our words anymore. Gloves are off, so to speak.
Sanam And, and, and so on that note, so if you were a billionaire right now, what would you be doing? //S02: I don't know what a billion looks like, as in, like, you know, actual amount.// People who own Bitcoin and stuff, you know, their wealth is, it's just, it's inconceivable, right? That, that all of a sudden, some people overnight have made, you know, $50 billion or something. I'm like, what is that? So a billion is, is a thousand, a thousand million? (.)
Ece Temelkuran Yeah. So. I hope you're right.
Sanam One, one of them.
Ece Temelkuran This is what I was going to tell you about those people who think themselves, like, immune. Nothing will happen to us anyway. Let's go for it. Let's go with it, and so on. I met some billionaires lately. Long story. I'm not getting into detail. It was a closed-door meeting, so I'm not supposed to talk about it. But then there are people who already built their bunkers on their world, and they're, you know, they have 40-year projection in their bunkers, and their problem is, I mean, like, this is so beyond absurd for me, but, and their problem is, what if the staff, working staff, in this underworld takes over, like, how can we-
Sanam Oh, there's a revolution in the bunker.
Ece Temelkuran Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. How can we stop the immunity, so to speak, and so on. They're literally discussing these things.
Sanam Good Lord, and what happens if the staff has more children than they are, than them?
Ece Temelkuran You see? Anyway, and I've seen billionaires, again, who are trying to do good as well, you know, for planet, for politics, and so on. Yeah. First of all, I don't want to be a billionaire in this story. I want to be somebody super powerful. On every level. On this, what if I am in charge thing. Because billionaire is a limiting state of being. You're limited with this money thing in your head. If I was really, really powerful, I would put more tax on wealth, to get to the point where redistribution wealth is possible. Because this is what the world needs. All we are going through, fascism, etc. Like, all this madness is because there is extreme inequality in the world. People are enraged, they are afraid, and they don't know what to do. And then some guy comes along and says, yeah, yeah, yeah, I got you.
Sanam I promise you this. Now, this brings us to another point, which is that when, between the extreme inequality, and then the rise of authoritarianism, and so forth, people move. Also, they go looking for better lives somewhere, right? And this idea that now we're blaming the refugees and the migrants for all the wrongs that have happened. And you've, you've been working on this on the question of, you know, what it means to your new book, Nation of Strangers, about home and, and, and so what, you know, that's another angle on these things where you, I keep saying, well, if everything was okay, and in Syria, people would move back, right? If we had avoided the Ukraine war, which should have, could have been done, I would imagine, if we'd put enough effort into the diplomacy, and, and we wouldn't have all this destruction. But now we've moved into a universe where we're spending more, more money on weapons, more on militarization. The people in charge don't really know, even, even those who are now in power, what's their vision? Where do they want to take us?
Ece Temelkuran I came to realize that as well. You know, sometimes when you look at the world, as Germans say, when you feel, feel the Weltschmerz, this exhaustion of the world, or exhaustion, getting exhausted with the world, you feel emotional, like, you know, you see something coming dark, and then there is no way out, and so on. And then, you know, you get teary eyes, and then you feel exhausted, battered, and so on. You know, you and I, we can do that. But when the head of the Munich Security Conference does that, I would have to write a piece called, When the White Man Cries. That is the, you know, that is the sign that, yes, we are literally going to a dark place, and it makes even a German middle-aged man cry. But, you know what, I mean, like, I wrote together for this reason, because it, all these things that you, we are witnessing, or we are living with, at one point, you know, breaks our faith in humanity. And then, it breaks our faith in ourselves as well. So, I think being faithful to humanity, having faith in humans, is a moral resistance. (.) That's why I have faith in people, that they can change things, that they can reverse this current, and so on. It's not, it's not, they are giving me a lot of hope, you know, with their actions and with their stances. But, I am going against the grain, despite their, you know, disappointing actions and stances. I have faith in them. This is my way of resisting from a moral point of view, from a moral place.
Sanam Yeah, to maintain your, I mean, on, the first step is maintaining your own dignity and your own values, and then reaching out. And I'm just wondering, you know, you talked at the beginning about this is, you know, top-down, and then actually we're seeing it bottom-up as well. And, you know, in my work, what gives me faith is that every time I'm at that point of, you know, I don't even want to call it bottom-up. It's that other, you know, it's the other way that one looks at the world, right, from the lens of the Syrian peace activist, or the Cameroonian, or the Nigerian. I've always found it incredibly humbling, actually, because I see people living in very, very difficult circumstances with very little. But their heart and their, the depth of their humanity and their ability to give is extraordinary. And that capacity for care, and, you know, whether it's radical love or not, it drives so much positive change. And yet, you know, what they have is diminished because we value people based on their dollar, based on their bank account.
Ece Temelkuran There is always this joke that I make, but now, since I am the most powerful person on earth, in charge.
Sanam You are the most powerful, yeah, and you have all the wealth, exactly. I want a human exchange program all around the world.
Ece Temelkuran Like, you know, those living in those, you know, with so much richness, with so much capital, with so much protection, so much immunity. Let's take you to Sudan a little bit for three months. Let's see what you do there. Let's see if poverty still sounds like a virus to you that has to be combated against rather than healed. So I want a human exchange program all over the world.
Sanam I remember years ago in the States, I was at a meeting and they were talking about actually Sudan. And they were saying, these people, these people are doing this and these people, you know, and it was a very sort of patronizing way of saying, look at how they, you know, whether they're resilient. And I looked and I said, well, you just put your shoes, yourself in those shoes. I mean, or let them come here. You know, those people here in America would be wanting to send their kids to school and doing various things. And you over there, I'm not quite sure how you would cope with one night in a field with, you know, a piece of tarpaulin and wandering. So, yeah, that exchange, I think, is really important to put ourselves in each other's shoes. So it's a radical empathy. Yeah, it's enforced empathy. (.)
Ece Temelkuran Enforced empathy program. (.) I mean, like, people, you know, of course, you talked about xenophobia, immigration, refugees, and so on and so forth. For several years, for several decades now, money has been so free to travel between the borders. So now people are, uh, in pursuit of better lives, money are, or not only money, but also for peace. They are traveling. So money should not be more.
Sanam Have more freedom than people. //S02: Exactly.// Okay, so on that note, um, you are the most powerful person in the world. The world is where it is. What gives you hope?
Ece Temelkuran You know, I don't believe in that word. I mean, like, I prefer faith. Okay. But what gives me faith, like, or what strengthens my faith? Uh, one day before the German elections, um, there was a writing competition award that was organized by Refugee Affairs in Berlin. It was called Heimat zuhen Heimat finden, uh, searching for home, finding home. And all the immigrants, all the immigration background people and so on were invited to write. And there were, there was this amazing, amazing ceremony in Berlin Ensemble, that glorious place with wonderful people. And outside the walls of Berlin Ensemble, there was a far-right demonstration. And this is 24 hours before the election. So I thought all these people, in order to be able to come there, they have to go through the police cordon, far-right demonstrators, and so on. And all of them, as you can imagine, none of them are white German people. So I thought, yeah, this is one of those moments. We're doing the right thing. And whatever happens tomorrow, the election day, we will be these people again. We will be together again. So that sense of, we are here, we're going nowhere, and we're together, uh, refreshes my faith in humankind. And I think everybody needs this now and then. So when people are depressed in the United States or in Italy or in Germany right now, I think they have to find their people to get in touch and to remind themselves and each other that they are there. They're not going anywhere.
Sanam Yeah, and I think that's such an important point, that go out and do something good for someone, right? Like, go out and help. //S02: Exactly.// And what you give, you'll get back 10 times in terms of your own, in terms of your own, well, your soul food, in a way. But don't bunker up in your house and get depressed, right?
Ece Temelkuran Staying humane is so important and it is a form of resistance at this point. So we have to stay humane. I don't mean go hug each other or, like, whatever, like, do the hippie stuff, but give. That's okay, too. Yeah. No, give. Give to people because this neoliberal morals have been telling us you are becoming better when you take. No, it's wrong. The neoliberal definition of human is wrong, false. Because we are happier when we give. We are humane when we share.
Sanam Thank you. On that note, lovely, lovely to talk to you. Thank you very much for this conversation. Thank you, Salam. Thank you. And I hope to see you soon. //S02: It's been lovely.//
Ece Temelkuran It's been lovely. Thank you so much. (......)
Sanam Hi, Sos. How are you doing? (.) Hi. I'm good. Happy to be back. Tell me something. Did you do Persian New Year? First of all, we should wish everybody a belated happy Noru's Persian New Year for the 20th of March this year, spring equinox. Did you, you know, introduce it to Cambridge and your friends? What did you do?
Soleh Yes, I forced some of my friends to do Choshambesuri, where we'd jump over the fires on the Wednesday eve before, so Tuesday evening we did it. Yeah, it was fun. And, like, we did it last year as well, so everyone was like, when are we doing the fire? (...)
Sanam Which was... Did you tell them what they had to chant and how did that happen?
Soleh I made two big posters, two big signs with the transliteration of the, you know, (13 seconds pause) Zardie manas to, Sorgie manas to, I'm like, no, no, no, no.
Sanam And it's just for people to understand, we jump over fire and we chant, may my yellowness and ill health go to you and may I have your glow and red health to me, basically. That's what we say to the fire. So it's just, like, very pagan ancient tradition, which is incredibly exhilarating, isn't it?
Soleh And by saying what I said before, they would be saying, may your, like, my yellow go to you and also my red go to you, which is not quite what you want to be doing.
Sanam Yeah, exactly. We were doing it by stealth, so we had three candles and we went into a little square just behind Junjun's house and jumped and there was a chap watching us. And my sister, Khalfati, tried to co-opt him into jumping with us and he was watching us a little bit skeptically. But anyway, good stuff. So, yeah, the year is 1404, bang in the middle of the Dark Ages, actually. That's where we are, which is kind of sort of ironically telling for the first conversation that I just had with Ece and about her book and her work on how to lose your country, seven steps from democracy to fascism. So what did you think of the conversation? (...)
Soleh I thought it was really interesting. I mean, the comparisons that, like, she makes with the U.S. and kind of her case study, I guess, of Turkey. And then when she mentions, like, the few of the seven steps that she thinks the U.S. is already going through, meaning, like, lack of shame in politics and the co-opting of language and, like, media platforms and things. And the shamelessness was a kind of, like, it's so true, but it's just a phrasing that I hadn't quite heard before. So it was kind of...
Sanam You know, I think the first one that she talked about was about labeling people, right? And I, you know, for me, I mean, as a kid after the revolution, we were hearing these terms, like, the regime would call people, everybody that we knew, corruptors of the earth. You know, they would take these obscure sort of religious, whatever, fanatical statements. But, yeah, it's like trying to basically discredit entire groups of people fully. And then the shamelessness, as you're saying. The other one that I found interesting was her last point, which is around the comedians can still make the jokes, you know. And that was, that's slightly ominous because you look at the U.S., you know, at least when we're looking through Instagram and various things, you know, social media, and you see, yeah, the late night, you know, comedians are still on or stand-ups and whatever. And somehow it makes them feel as if things were normal. (.) And it's not. So, yeah, that was an interesting one for me as well.
Soleh It felt like during the Trump term, like, SNL was so bad because it's like, well, what are you even going to satirize when it's all so insane anyway? So, yeah, it was an interesting point.
Sanam Are you talking to your friends about kind of how they are basically threatening private universities, you know, threatening to withdraw federal funds from universities like Columbia, a letter to Georgetown Law School about, you know, not teaching things like civil rights. And then we haven't really heard what they're doing to the state schools, but I imagine that there's a lot of pressure there around funding cuts. How does that, how does that resonate for you? And are you, you know, are your friends talking about these things?
Soleh Yeah, it's, I mean, definitely, like, people, it's a huge topic of conversation, right, because it is directly affecting, like, people that I know. Even here, I have a friend who's, like, partially funded. Some of her field work would have been in conjunction with, like, she does geography, anthropology kind of stuff. And, like, some of her field work would have been in conjunction with the USAID project completely cancelled. Like, you know, people are having to kind of really restructure what they're doing. I mean, and that's on kind of a, you know, that's, that, you know, this doesn't affect someone. This is, she'll be fine, you know what I mean? And that's kind of, but even these, like, small effects are kind of having huge impacts. And, like, not to mention in the US where, like, you know, they arrested the Columbia student. And it's kind of, it's kind of tragic to see because it's these universities that, you know, you're a part of and you kind of think that, And they kind of claim that they, you know, oh, you're, we're, like, family and we'll protect you and whatever. And it's kind of, you can just see how quickly, like, the second that you say anything against the university itself, like, they won't protect you anymore. And it's so kind of blatant to see. And it's, I think it's tough because, like, obviously we feel bad that, like, you know, and it's terrible that all this funding is being cut for, like, really important research. But at the same time, you know, well, the students aren't going to stand up for the universities if the universities aren't standing up for the students. So it's kind of, I think it's an interesting dynamic right now in terms of, like, where people fall on these things.
Sanam That's interesting that you're saying that, that there's a, you know, it's a kind of a split between, yeah, the individual students and how their funding is getting cut. But, and the fact that their own universities aren't standing up for them or revisiting, you know, especially the rich colleges, I, you know, I don't know anything about how the finances can be done. But when you hear about the massive endowments, you know, multi-billion dollar endowments in the private universities, you think, well, this is the moment where you should be thinking about, you know, drawing on some of your own resources. But the idea that the sense of solidarity and compassion for the students is missing, that's, that's really, that's something that I hadn't really thought about. You know, it's. (..)
Soleh I thought that her point about, like, accepting that, accepting that you're defeated and kind of being honest, like a politician. I guess she says, she says, she frames as Democrats, like, having to admit that they're the defeated side of the story. I thought that was really interesting because I think a lot of people and politicians and whatever have this idea that they can never, like, accept that they've been beaten. But I think we're seeing now that, like, because they're not accepting that they've been beaten, that then they're unwilling to change.
Sanam It feels, not only that they are sort of unwilling to acknowledge it, they're, I feel as if they kind of owe us an apology as well for the way that they, so arrogant and so. //S01: Yeah, for sure.// With everybody, you know, and it just, and just, like, get out of the way and let a new generation come through. I mean, maybe, you know, obviously they're having their own internal, you know, competitions, I suppose. But it just, it feels as if they have no strategy, they had no understanding of what was coming when the rest of us actually saw it, kind of. And now they're being blindsided by everything. And whereas with the Trump administration, you know, last time around, I remember in D.C., we could feel that if they had won a second term, things would change radically because they understood the way government worked. But it feels as if these last four years they've really been preparing, and so they've come in with a clear agenda, with a clear strategy of how they're implementing it, and they're just going for it. And, you know, however bad they are, or whatever they are, clearly they're better than the guys that they defeated. I mean, that's what they want to achieve, you know. So that's the really sort of part that...
Soleh And what I was saying before about, like, it kind of, it feels like these things happened gradually, but all at once as well. I think the clearest example is, like, that everyone talks about, you know, is the courts. Like, they're so, you know, like, we won't be able to take that back for many, many years, you know. And that was on purpose, and that was gradual, and that was, like, targeted. (..) And now we can, like, you know, now they have the majority everywhere, and they're able to just do whatever they want. Because the Democrats didn't really, like, nobody put up a fight. You know, people kind of just fell in line. And she says this too, right, that, like, people don't resist, and at some point people just kind of give in. And, like, you know, the justices on the courts are like that, and so many, you know, congressmen and all these things that have been outspoken previously about, like, Marco Rubio or someone like that. So outspoken about how awful Trump is, and now they're, like, completely falling in line.
Sanam Difficult times ahead, but, you know, more than anything else, I feel as if we're letting you guys down, and it makes me angry that there isn't more kind of urgency from my generation. (..) We keep saying it's up to you guys, you know.
Soleh I think a lack of urgency is a good way of putting it. (.)
Sanam Well, thanks for that conversation, and have a good trip. (.....) My thanks again to the Bijan Rissar Foundation, to my own organization, ICANN, and to ADA Productions for making these podcasts possible. Please do join us with your thoughts and your ideas. Email us at info at icanpeacework.org. Info at icanpeacework.org. And follow us with the newsletter and on social media. Looking forward to hearing from you, and I hope you can join me for the rest of this season as well. And if you want to catch up on last season, please do so. There were some great conversations and a lot of inspiration. Thanks so much. Bye-bye.