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Sanam Hi, everyone. It's Sanam Naraghi Anderlini of If You're In Charge. I'm excited to say that we are working on season two of our series. But for now, over the holidays, we wanted to share something a little bit different. We're partnering with Houses of the Moon. It's a theater company in the U.S. And I'm excited to share with you this episode of a three-part documentary podcast that they're doing. It's like a radio play, an old-fashioned radio play, called De Novo. And it's the story of a Guatemalan teenager, Edgar Chochoy, who faced deportation after fleeing to the U.S. The podcast is adapted from an acclaimed documentary play of the same name. And all of the script that the actors play out is actually the script from the court and the immigration asylum tribunal and the interviews and so forth. So it's very much sort of real life, but adapted by actors. And the story is both gut-wrenching and inspiring. So Edward Chochoy-Guzman was 14 years old. Edward Chochoy-Guzman was 14 years old in 2002 when MS-13, which is the largest gang in Central America, put a hit on his life. (.) He decided to flee to the U.S., over 3,000 miles on his own, to try and find his mom, who had left him when he was a baby, so that she could go work in the U.S. and send money back home. Along the way, of course, he gets detained by Homeland Security. And they called him, or they nicknamed him, Little Silent because of his timid nature. But he speaks clearly and loudly about his fear of being deported. Imagine this, that a 14-year-old boy is standing there in front of these security guys and saying to them, I'm afraid to go back, they'll kill me. And the series, this three-part series, is basically, as I said, the verbatim text from the court, the interviews and the letters and all the documents from the real-life situation. It's slightly different to what we've done usually, but I thought that it would be really nice to have something different as we laid the groundwork for the second season, starting in January, but also to show, in a way, the human face of who is dealing with the immigration crisis, who are the victims of it and the survivors of it, but also who are the heroic lawyers who are taking up these cases and really trying to put the principles of human rights into practice in daily life right now in our part of the world, where we don't often hear about this side of the story. So, I hope you enjoy episode one of the three-part De Novo series. Thank you. (....)
Voice 13 President Trump has already declared a national emergency to free up more money for a border wall.
Voice 2 Conditions are terrible in Guatemala, Honduras, and Salvador. For teenagers, there's no decent-paying work. Street gangs are forcibly recruiting boys and assaulting girls. So parents and their kids...
Voice 1 Yesterday, we had a single highest-day record of illegal border crossings. Ever recorded, 12,600. One day. We have no idea who any of them are.
Voice 5 Carlos, are you one of the kids that you're talking about?
Voice 7 Yes, I am one of those kids. I was 13 years old when I left El Salvador, and I crossed the border with my mom and brother.
Voice 5 Where are you leaving El Salvador?
Voice 7 I left El Salvador because there was a lot of gang violence, and, like, the violence was everywhere. There was no safe place nowhere in El Salvador. And my mom thought that me and my brother would be forced to join the gang in order to survive, or we would get killed. (18 seconds pause) You're listening to The Noble, a documentary drama from the Houses on the Moon Theater Company.
Voice 5 We are going to tell you the true story of Edgar Chicoe, a teenager from Guatemala.
Voice 7 Just like me, Edgar came to this country asking the USA for protection, and not to send her back to his homeland. (....)
Voice 5 Hola, mi nombre es Regina Oreña.
Voice 7 And I'm Carlos Aviles.
Voice 5 We're both students at Pan-American International High School in New York City, a school for recent immigrants mostly from Latin America.
Voice 7 We're going to tell you the story of one undocumented person through all these documents.
Voice 5 Oh, my God, there's a lot of papers here.
Voice 7 All the words that you are about to hear are real words from people that were part of Edgar's life and also the case. (.)
Voice 5 Carlos, where should we start?
Voice 7 Okay, this one. Mira.
Voice 5 Okay, let me see. El Certificado Nacimiento. Oh, it's his birth certificate. Edgar Humberto Chicoe Guzman, born May 26, 1987.
Voice 11 Ay, qué lindo. (.) Ay, cómo está mi tierno. Qué lindo. (.)
Voice 7 Things weren't easy for Edgar's mom, Margarita. There wasn't enough money or food in Guatemala. And so when Edgar was just a baby, his mom had to make the hardest decision. (..)
Voice 9 When Edgar was six months old, I left him with mi papá y mi mamá and came to the United States. (..) I came because, in reality, over there in Guatemala, if you buy for one child and the other goes hungry, so I said to myself, it's better if I leave. There's opportunity over there. So I came to the United States. But I would always send money for his food. I would send him clothes. (..) Too bad I don't have the video because one time I sent Edgar and his brother a ring, a bracelet, and a chain. I would pay for it in installments, and he would say, look, mamá, here is the chain, the ring, and the bracelet that you gave me. (...) I don't remember where the video is, though. But they never went without food or shelter. Edgar always had what he needed. I never abandoned him. (......)
Voice 10 Oh, hi. I'm Kimberly Salinas. I'm Edgar's lawyer. I'm not Hispanic, just by marriage. (.) Edgar's case, well, it came to me through a pro bono project. He came in shackled and cuffed, and then once he was in, they took off his cuffs and his shackles, and we just talked. (..) He was never macho or aggressive or any of those gang-associated things at all. He was just a sweet kid. He was really kind of shy, so we talked about other things before we talked about his case. You know, we talked about his country. We kind of joked around a bit. But I explained to him from the beginning that it was going to be tough, that the case was not going to be easy, and that it was kind of a long shot. But it was the only shot he had. (....)
Voice 5 Carlos, have you been in immigration court?
Voice 7 I went to my first court three years ago. And, you know, it's a very unique feeling when you go to the court because you don't know what is going to happen. You don't know what is the judge going to decide for your life. Because when you go to, like, these courts, you are basically fighting for your life.
Voice 5 I want to know what actually happened in Edgar's court hearing. Can we look at the transcript?
Voice 7 Yes, the first voice you are about to hear is Judge James Mandelo. (...)
Voice 8 Good afternoon, Mr. Chakoy. Would you please stand and raise your right hand, and I will swear you in. Por favor, párese y levante la mano derecha para jurarlo. (.) Mr. Chakoy, that's the wrong hand. La derecha. (..) Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Voice 9 Jura, decir la verdad, toda la verdad, y nada más que la verdad con la ayuda de Dios.
Voice 8 Si. Yes. Be seated. Siéntese. (.) Counsel, you may examine your client.
Voice 9 Um, Edgar, can you please tell me your name and age? ¿Puedes decirme, por favor, tu nombre y edad?
Voice 12 Edgar Humberto Chakoy Guzmán, 16 años.
Voice 9 Edgar Humberto Chakoy Guzmán, 16 years old. Where were you born? ¿Dónde naciste?
Voice 12 En Guatemala.
Voice 9 En Guatemala. Did you know your father? ¿Conociste a tu padre?
Voice 12 Una vez lo conocí nomás.
Voice 9 I just met him once. Who raised you? ¿Quién te crió?
Voice 12 Mi abuelo.
Voice 9 My grandfather. Who, um, lived in the house where you grew up? ¿Quién vivía en la casa donde creciste?
Voice 12 En mi tío, mi tía, personas que alquilaban apartamentos y mi abuelo.
Voice 9 My aunt, my uncle, people that rented apartments, and my grandfather. What did your uncle do for work? ¿En qué trabajaba tu tío?
Voice 12 Mi tío no trabajaba, nomás vendía drogas fuera de la casa.
Voice 9 My uncle didn't work. He just sold drugs out of the house. Did your grandfather spend much time with you? ¿Tu abuelo pasaba mucho tiempo contigo?
Voice 12 No, él trabajaba, iba a la iglesia.
Voice 9 No, he worked and went to church. Did you have, um, many friends as a child before you started school? ¿Tenías muchos amigos cuando eras niño antes de empezar la escuela?
Voice 12 No, seguido pasaba solo en la casa.
Voice 9 No, I often felt very lonely at home.
Voice 12 Fui a la calle a buscar otros niños con quien estar.
Voice 9 I went into the streets to find other kids to be with.
Voice 10 Were most of the children in your neighborhood in Guatemala involved in gangs? ¿La mayoría de los niños en tu barrio en Guatemala estaban involucrados con pandillas?
Voice 12 Sí.
Voice 10 Yes. Where did you first meet the members of the gang Mata Salvatrucha? I'm, I'm sorry, what is the name of the gang? Mata Salvatrucha.
Voice 8 Would you spell that for the record, counselor?
Voice 10 Yes. Uh, M-A-R-A is the first word. Second word is S-A-L-V-A-T-R-U-C-H-A. Thank you. Um, when did you first meet the members of the gang?
Voice 9 ¿Cuándo conociste por primera vez a los miembros de la pandilla?
Voice 12 Tenía diez años. I was ten years old.
Voice 9 How old were they?
Voice 12 Um, tenían dieciocho o diecinueve. Eran mayores que yo.
Voice 9 They were eighteen or nineteen, older than I was. Did you join the gang? ¿Deoniste a la pandilla?
Voice 12 Sí.
Voice 9 Yes. Why? ¿Por qué?
Voice 12 Porque no tenía cariño con mi familia.
Voice 9 Because I hardly had any affection with my family.
Voice 12 Pensaba que eran la única familia que yo tenía.
Voice 9 I thought they were the only family I had. (.....)
Voice 7 When Edgar was a teenager, he fled to the United States to be with his mom. But he got locked up in the juvenile detention center. (.)
Voice 3 This is Santiago Sanchez. I'm a counselor, mentor, and juvenile hall in San Dimas, California. His gang name, they call him Little Silent. Because, you know, Edgar was a very timid kid. He was very quiet. And the guys there at the camp, they would give him a hard time for it. He didn't speak any English, so it was even harder for him. But, you know, I spoke to him in Spanish. I let him know where I was coming from, and I had grew up in the same lifestyle. And I was trying to help people now. I told him, you're young. You could do everything different if you wanted to. You want to take off those tattoos, we could help take them off. And he was like, no way, ese. (.....)
Voice 12 I said, okay, I can respect that. (.)
Voice 3 He said he got him done because he was drunk, hanging out with his homies. They say they will tattoo him up. And he was like, let's do it. (..)
Voice 15 All right, papas is going to just think for a little bit once it's done. Look nice. He's going to let everybody know where you're from.
Voice 14 Hey, homie, get the lot to another beer. Both five. You got it, little silent, you got it.
Voice 3 You see, the gangs, they got this culture where you take pride in where you come from. And you got to love it with your life. And the pride takes place. I mean, because if you're a kid and you're growing up in a dysfunctional family, there's nothing to be proud about. So you go find a gang and you learn what pride is. You're putting that pride into all the wrong things.
Voice 14 That's looking nice, dawg. Watch out.
Voice 6 Eso.
Voice 14 Eso. (..)
Voice 6 Remember, my boy, we family here. Anything goes down, we all going down. Eso. (..)
Voice 3 I was in a gang, and I never thought I would change. or grow out of it. (..) I thought I was in it for life. And as I started getting older, real close friends to me, they started getting killed. And it hurt to see them in coffins. (.) And somehow, after a while, teachers in high school actually started to get some sense into me, helped me to see I was worth more than just being out there and getting shot at. (.) It's got to be more in life than this. (.) It's too much. It's too much pain. (.........)
Voice 8 Miscellaneous, counsel, you can continue to examine your client.
Voice 10 What did you do with the gang, Mara Salvatrucha? (..)
Voice 12 Ellos robaban cadenas y como relojes, cosas así, robaban y eso.
Voice 9 They stole things like chains and watches, things like that they stole. Did you, um, fight with the gang?
Voice 12 Una vez me obligaron y fue muy feo.
Voice 9 One time they forced me and it was awful.
Voice 12 Después de eso, me inventaba algo como que tenía que hacer un encargo para mi abuelo.
Voice 9 After that, I always made up some excuse, like I had to do an errand for my grandfather. (.) Did you, um, ever see them hurt people?
Voice 12 Así como pedradas, con pieras, con bates. Así, golpeaban personas.
Voice 9 Yes, they beat people like with rocks and baseball bats.
Voice 12 Yo sé que matan personas.
Voice 9 I know they kill people.
Voice 10 Edgar, um, why did you decide to leave the gang, Mara Salvatrucha? (.)
Voice 5 Yeah, that's what I want to know. Why did he leave the gang?
Voice 7 The answer is right here. He says it in the affidavit.
Voice 5 The affidavit what? What is that?
Voice 7 Yeah, an affidavit. It's a legal document where you swear on their oath that you're only telling the truth. (.) This is exhibit number two from Edgar's asylum case. The affidavit of Edgar Chugoy Guzman. These are Edgar's words translated from Spanish. (.......)
Voice 12 I met some other kids who played soccer on a soccer field outside of my barrio. They came from families who had money. Their families had businesses and owned farms. The older kids had cars. (.) I wanted to hang out with them. I like playing soccer. The guys from the gang didn't play soccer. They only stole and did drugs. (.....)
Voice 11 What's your name? Me? No, your mama. Of course you. What's your name? (.) Edgar. Edgar, we're missing a player. You want to join us? Sale. (.)
Voice 6 Edgar, go.
Voice 9 Edgar, go. (..)
Voice 11 They began to invite me to their houses.
Voice 12 We would play video games and stuff like that at their houses.
Voice 4 Hey, Edgar. Do you want to be in the picture with us? ¿Quieres salir con nosotros en la foto?
Voice 12 Edgar, it's selfie time. (.) ¿Está bueno? Una, dos, tres. //S11: Y tres. Whisky. (..)//
Voice 10 And that opened up a whole world that he had never seen. This is Kim again, Edgar's lawyer. You know, here's a mother, here's a father. They're involved in a kid's life. And, you know, they come home. They ask them how their day was. Or they make them food. Or they just do the kind of things, you know, that parents do for kids that he never had. So he really became enamored with that. You know, you could tell. You could really tell when he started talking about these other kids that that's what he really wanted.
Voice 5 Edgar, why are you dressed like that? Bro, you look stupid. Do you want to be a gangster? Come on. You look ridiculous. (....)
Voice 12 I asked my mother in the United States to send me good clothes like these kids wore. She sent me good clothes and shoes. And I changed the way I dressed. I wanted to be like them. But then I went to school.
Voice 7 Edgar, where have you been, boy? (.) Why are you dressed like that? (.) You look like a little bitch. (.) What's going on? (.) You don't clean your body anymore? (...)
Voice 12 I want to be in the bandilla.
Voice 7 What? (.)
Voice 12 I told them I didn't want to be with the gang anymore. And that's when the real problems began. (.........)
Voice 5 This is exhibit number three in Edgar's asylum case.
Voice 3 Psychiatric assessment of Edgar Chakoy by Dr. Daniel J. Sabin on November 18, 2003. Mr. Chakoy met the following criteria for post-traumatic stress disorder. Mr. Chakoy has recurrent and distressing recollection of events involving gang members around the time when he withdrew from the MS gang. These thoughts are disturbing to him. Mr. Chakoy has recurrent and distressing dreams of gang members punching him. Mr. Chakoy sometimes feels as if he's being beaten by gang members all over again. This in particular happens when he's just waking from sleep. Mr. Chakoy reports increased heart rate and sweating when he's reminded of her when he thinks of being pursued by gang members in Guatemala. (....)
Voice 10 Edgar, do you know what a luz verde is?
Voice 9 A luz verde is when they are going to kill somebody and they say somebody has the green light. When does the gang give someone the green light?
Voice 12 When somebody leaves the gang. Whenever they see them, they kill them.
Voice 10 Did they put a green light on you?