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Soleh I'm sure Lydia will bring this up, but she keeps telling me that I talk really slowly and that because I have this, like, a deeper voice, it's like, slow and deep, and I'm like, that's, this is pretty harsh criticism, but, hello, this is Soleh with the intro today, this is If You Were In Charge, brought to you by the Robert Bosch Academy and ICANN, um, yeah, hello, hi, mommy, how are you?
Sanam I'm fine, that's, that's great, you can, you can do the intros in season two if we get there. So, we've done nine podcasts, what's your sense, did you, when, when we started until now, like, what's it been like for you, actually?
Soleh I mean, it's been fun. I, I don't know that I even fully believed that we were gonna do it at the beginning. Um. You don't know your mother, do you? I do, so, um, I didn't, I didn't believe it till it was happening. But, yeah. But, no, it's been, it's been fun. I mean, it's, it was nice to have Liddy for the one episode, who, and she, preview, she'll be featuring today, too. I know, I'm hoping she's gonna join us. But, yeah, generally, it's, it's been, it's been nice to be finally acknowledged as the, the favorite child, so, yeah. (.)
Sanam I think, I think Liddy has had a lot of FOMO, but, um, but hopefully she'll come in.
Soleh How have you found it, since you've been doing all the interviews and kind of chatting with these people?
Sanam You know, I really had a great time, actually. I, it's been really interesting to, to hear people and, and to be able to give them the space to, a, talk about their own work, but also, like, just, just the concept, just the premise of, you know, okay, so if you're in charge, you lift your head and imagine. And, and, and, and, you know, if you're, if you're a billionaire, and, and the whole question of, you know, hope, I, I think one of the things that I find, that I found interesting across the different interviews is that when I've said what gives you hope, a lot of people have paused.
Soleh Yeah, I've noticed that, too. Like, oh.
Sanam And, but, but also, like, you know, I don't know whether they're feeling hopeless or hopeful, but, but, um.
Soleh Well, it's just probably not a question that they get particularly often, right?
Sanam Yeah, maybe that's, maybe that could be. Yeah, it's, it's, actually, that's, that's the other thing. That it's sort of the blending of their knowledge and the work that they do, right? You know, what, all the issues they know about, and then, and then how they're dealing with it. And then the, kind of, the personal twist on it. I found that, that's been a really, um, nice part of the conversation that, that, and everybody's been happy to, to sort of, you know, speak freely and, and, um, and speak openly. I thought, I thought that was, that was nice.
Soleh Well, it's kind of the advantage of, like, the whole premise of the podcast, right? Like, giving people the, the, the, the place to kind of be like, but this is my actual opinion. Because in most places, probably these people can't just be like, well, I think, you know, and then kind of just say whatever they want. You know, maybe they work with an institution or a company or something like that. Yeah, you can see sometimes that they're like, oh, let me just actually say all the things that I think.
Sanam the construct of, of the podcast of saying, if you were in charge, just to allow people to imagine, I think is, is really important. Because in my research in Germany, when I was sort of doing my fellowship on problems of polarization and social cohesion and what could be done, you know, I'm talking to people and they're telling me about their own work on how they're, you know, in education, trying to sort of get rid of forms of discrimination that are implicit in the textbooks or community work that they're doing with, I don't know, refugees and migrants and stuff. And then, and then when I said, when I would say, okay, so if you were in charge, what would you do? It's almost as if all the bureaucratic and institutional and, you know, political constraints, like all those ropes that hold people down, kind of keep them so locked up that freeing themselves to sort of say, actually, what should be done, (..) it takes them a little while to get into that headspace. And so, so that, that's kind of why I thought it would be interesting to, to have these conversations. Cause it, cause it's like, you know, we're all, again, it's, it's like that idea of the metaphor of, you know, you're going, you're walking towards up a mountain and, and you're focused so much on that step one, step at a time, sort of approach that you're not actually looking up and looking around and looking at what else is going on and stuff. So, so, so yeah, so I, I don't know. I, I hope, I hope listeners liked or, you know, appreciated that part as well. So, so which, which one, did you have a favorite one? Was there, were there sort of aha moments in, in different ones?
Soleh In terms of like, which one was fun to record? I thought that obviously the conservation optimism one was fun, but in terms of aha moment, maybe, I think it was the, the two Middle East ones were probably the, also the ones that I did, I knew the least about, um, in terms of kind of the specifics, like what they were talking about. So they were kind of the most, I guess, aha moment is a, is a good phrase. And then kind of getting the two perspectives was really, was really cool. So yeah. Which one was your favorite?
Sanam It's, it's been the same thing. I've, I've sort of had these moments where I'm like, oh my God, I'm, this is an extraordinary person, right? Like in each way. I mean, for example, you know, when I listened to, to Meredith talk about Signal and the fact that back in the 1990s, when they made the laws, you know, they were allowed to commercialize data. Like again, it's like these aha moments of, I was like, oh, that makes sense now of why things work in the same, you know, and again, I, you know, I freely admit that I'm a complete Luddite when it comes to anything to do with technology and so forth. But it, but it's like, it's, we're immersed in it. It's, it's, it's such a sort of, it's, you know, Wi-Fi or hardwired into our lives right now. And, and, you know, it's just like, yeah, these moments where you're like, oh, I didn't know about that. Or, or, or for example, again, the Middle East ones, the conversation, obviously both with Hanan about him speaking about the ideology, which I thought was really important. And then at the same time talking to Mohammed and the experience of life as a Palestinian citizen of Israel. We don't often hear about that, right? (.) And, and, and of course, what I, you know, if, when, if, and when we do a next season, I will definitely make sure that we have Palestinian perspective from, you know, the West Bank and, and, and Gaza if possible. But, but so often we think about the Palestinian issue from the standpoint of the occupied territories and we don't really talk about the, the differences, the tensions, the, the, you know, reality, the bridges between those who are inside and outside. So, so I thought that was, that was really great. Kelly was just heart-wrenching. And, and also, you know, again, you, you know, you talked about growing up in Washington and (.) understanding the tensions that come with the police, right? But to be somebody who, you know, is, you know, her age, her sort of social or economic status, you know, kind of in the world that she lived in, I mean, you know, as, as a interior designer and then suddenly kind of hitting this reality, I thought that was just very, very striking. Yeah. (..) And then Abby Disney was, was extraordinary. I, you know, that was, that was a great conversation. It was just kind of, so yeah, I'm just, it's kind of like I'm going through, I think this last conversation with Steve Walt was, was wonderful. Again, not necessarily, you know, obviously his views and his, his, you know, sort of scholarly work and, and analysis of US politics, but, but just as a, as, as a person, you know, what a great guy. Um, you know, I'd like to go sit in his classes or I wish you'd taken some of his classes when you were up there. So I, yeah.
Soleh It has been interesting also to like talk to my friends about these things and kind of, well, both after they listened to the podcast and then also before so that I can steal their ideas and say them, but I think it's kind of the point of my role here.
Sanam You are representing an entire global generation after all.
Soleh I don't think that, yeah, I'm not doing that, but, um, uh, yeah, so that's kind of been interesting too. And, uh, I think then maybe it just, it, for different topics, it, it works differently. Like for, I think it would be difficult for me to just give, and this is why we decided to do it like that, that it would be difficult for me to just give like my opinions on the situation in, um, Palestine. But I do have opinions clearly on feminism or like me, you know, talk to my friends about these kinds of things. So I, a lot of my friends have said that they like your voice. (.) Um, yeah, but I mean, for sure. I think some of the conversations are very relevant to like my generation and, um, my friends and all that.
Sanam Look who's here.
Soleh Hi. //S02: Yeah. Oh my God. That was loud.// Oh my God. Why? (.)
Sanam It's so loud. You're so loud. How are you doing?
Lydia I'm good. Sorry. My meeting ran over.
Sanam Okay. Well, welcome to the podcast.
Soleh Um, we were just discussing how I'm the favorite child and how it's been immortalized on the internet in perpetuity. How do you feel?
Lydia Well, mommy constantly begs me to quit my job and join the podcast. So I don't, I don't think that that's, that's doing. Yeah. I don't think that's indicating that you're the favorite child.
Sanam We think, we think you might've had a little bit of FOMO.
Lydia I don't think I have FOMO.
Sanam Lidbit, uh, which have you enjoyed of the conversations? Of course, you're a loyal listener. We know that.
Lydia Yes. I, I liked the police violence one a lot. I thought that one was really interesting. You know, she's sort of coming at it from a different perspective, I guess. But like, yeah, that one was really interesting.
Soleh And I really liked the guests, I guess.
Lydia I, yeah, I think EJ was my favorite episode, obviously, because it's like an area that I (.) am interested in and know a lot about. But also because, like, she's done a lot of work on engaging people. So I think that she talks about it really well and sort of, like, persuasively. And then, yeah. And then I liked the Palestinian duo one, Israel-Palestine one. You know, it's not like a both sides-ism in the same way that you get in, like, the news. I thought it was, like, a cool way to see different perspectives. Like, ultimately, sort of want similar goals.
Sanam You know, this is the only thing that I find interesting in terms of, like, the conversations we have with these big folks that are so knowledgeable and so much at the forefront of the issues and trying to make the changes that need to be made. And then how the media covers these issues. Because at what point does it start to make a difference? Or have we reached a point where there's so much fatigue and so much fragmentation that people aren't even seeing? In fact, people are actually beginning to question and undermine and say, well, it's not really happening, you know, the fake news kind of side of the story. So, yeah, so I think there's something to be said about interviewing the interviewers in a way, you know, the folks that are often doing the reporting, but to see what it's like from their side.
Soleh Another interesting one for next season would be to be someone maybe who works in either in, like, mainstream news or, like, not, like, alternative kind of reporting and stuff like that and how that is changing. I mean, it's similar, I guess, in a way, it kind of bouncing off of what Meredith was talking about. But the whole, like, fake news and what what can we believe and what shouldn't we believe stuff and like, how can we tell how can we filter through if we can at all would be an //S00: interesting one.//
Lydia the question there about how they see, like, the fractured lands, media landscape, as people say, like, does the New York Times, well, I'm sure they do in the monetary senses, but also, like, influence senses feel that, like, their viewership is, like, more and more just, like, one group, if that makes sense.
Soleh Like, they're not reaching as widely anymore. (.)
Lydia There's criticisms from, like, both sides. And, like, how did they grapple with that? (11 seconds pause)
Sanam So, so, Lyd, how is it? Yeah, first of all, what do you, what, you know, the conversation that Sola and I have been having, what do you think about that? And, and, you know, have you, I, I, it's been, I love having you with us, obviously. You know, Sola, that's not to denigrate your position. It's, you know, but what do you think, Lyd?
Lydia Yeah, I mean, I think your conversations have been good. I think we've all learned that when you guys record at 830, so, like, you can really hear it in her voice, um, yeah, I have learned that mommy doesn't understand at all what
Soleh Sola's PhD is about, um, no more questions about the bacteria, the bacteria trying to edit things and, like, fix enzyme names because they sounded bad.
Sanam I read, I read, I'm sorry, I read the first year report. I, I, I helped. They sound bizarre. Thank you very much. (..)
Lydia And then, I mean, the rest of the conversations, like, we've always sort of talked about, lots of these things, especially because, like, we always sort of wanted to understand, well, I guess since we've been, like, conscious people, and by that I mean, like, I don't know, older than 16, um, like, we wanted to understand your work and that sort of thing, so we've, like, talked about that. So these have been conversations we've been having for ages, and it's sort of, it's funny to hear the two of you, because obviously I never hear, like, me, I'm sure we, both of us have one-on-one conversations with you, but I never hear the one-on-one conversation between you two, so it's sort of funny to hear that.
Soleh Because if you're there, you can't resist talking, so, yeah.
Lydia Well, if I'm there, it changes the conversation.
Soleh Yeah. Just a yapper.
Sanam Changes the dynamics, doesn't it? No, that, that's, that's a very, very good point, because we do have these conversations about different things, um, you know, between us, you know, and, and, but then when the three of us are together, you guys take over, and I'm the idiot, so, so, you know, what do I want to find things out? (..)
Lydia That's, I also think, like, we've always had these conversations with lots of people, like, with, with yours, with, with, with our aunt. It's, like, maybe a bit more combative, but, like, these have always been things that we, that we talk about, um.
Soleh And with friends and stuff. (.)
Lydia And with friends, yeah. And we always, like, fundamentally agree, and I think, like, in all of those conversations, you guys are agreeing, and it's just sort of, like, how far, like, what questions do you ask, how far do you push it, and that sort of thing.
Soleh Maybe we should find a topic for the next season that we, like, viscerally disagree on. Okay, there we go, we can talk about that.
Lydia I also think it's nice that, like, because a lot of these topics, it's nice to, like, not pretend to be objective, because they're not topics you can talk about, like, clinically or objectively. And so it's sort of, what you want is someone's perspective, and, like, sort of the audience, or, like, I trust you to choose somebody who can tell me about this effectively, and therefore, like, I want to hear their bias, you know what I mean? And, like, all these things are opinion topics, and I, like, want to hear their opinions.
Soleh Do you have any last critiques for us, what we should change?
Sanam Yeah, do you have any last critiques? Exactly. And also, what, you know, what are your friends saying?
Lydia I liked the conversations with Soleh after. I thought those were good, because I think, yeah, I mean, I sort of liked the immediate reflections more than necessarily the preview, because even for Soleh's sake, like, you know more about it once you've heard the episode, and so there's, it feels like it makes more sense to do it that way. I also like, I thought that, like, by the end of the season, you're getting better at it, but I think that, like, actually asking them the central question of, like, what would you do should, like, come sooner, maybe. (.) And obviously, I've just said that I like hearing their bio, but, like, I think it's nice to have back and forth and the questions and whatever, but the whole, like, what would be, what do you think that, like, the key things that are wrong now are, and, like, how would you fix them is, sort of, maybe should, should come a bit earlier, because that's what you want to know.
Sanam We'll try and figure that one out. Going back to your earlier point, I think, you know, again, for me, one of the big things is that it's really nice to, to get the personality out, right? Like, it's, you have an expert, and, and, yeah, people can, you know, they can stand up and sound like an expert, but, but to get some element of the human being that exists, you know, and, and how do they think about things and, and, and so forth, I thought, I thought, I that's also just really important, because we, especially when it comes to activists, there's a tendency to, sort of, discount that, you know, they might be complete human beings that have a sense of humor or kind of despair and, you know, whatever, it's, it's like, you know, or have had their moments of, you know, disappointment and, and, and stuff, so, so I, I hope that some of that is coming through as well, and, and, and what do you think about having Sole join me in, in actually asking questions? We were thinking that maybe if the timing works, we could do it for the last episode of the season. which we are now previewing, which is going to be with Yasmin Raji, the CEO of Swing Left, which is one of the biggest US left wing grassroots organizations that was out there trying to get the vote out. So we're going to be talking to her about progressive politics and, and I'm hoping that Sos can, yeah, will join me. But I'm excited for, I'm excited for,
Lydia for Yossi's episode. I think that it'll be interesting. And I have been consuming far too many interviews about what went wrong in the election. So interesting to hear another one. Okay, I'm going to go now.
Soleh We've been, we've been yapping for a while. Bye. Bye, Lyd. (.)
Sanam So, so Lyd, bye and, uh, bye, bye, bye. Um, um, Sosie, uh, so, so, so according to Lydia, I don't understand your PhD at all, so I'm not allowed to ask about your floating yellow bacteria, which makes me a bit sad because, you know.
Soleh I just, I mean, you can ask about them, but just don't expect there to be any interesting answers, so.
Sanam I am forever optimistic, and, and I'm sure that you will make a breakthrough and change the world.
Soleh I mean, but the, the breakthrough won't be in the bacteria, like how the bacteria look or something.
Sanam No, well, I would assume that if the bacteria starts eating plastic, it might start to look different.
Soleh Well, they do things, you know. No, why would they look different? They look like bacteria. All right. Whatever. Whatever. Whatever. Whatever. So maybe she was right. Anyway.
Sanam Okay. Well, thank you very much for this fun, fun conversation that we had. I hope the end of term has been fun and.
Lydia You'll see next week.
Sanam Yes. Yeah. I think that's going to be, that's going to be a good conversation. Bye. So, all righty. Talk to you soon. Bye bye. Love you. Bye. This is an Africa digital audio production. My executive producer is Pierce Lynch, and it contains original music by Little Monster Media. Remember, you can catch a new episode of If You Were In Charge every Tuesday. A huge thanks from me to the Bosch Academy for making these conversations possible and to my own organization, ICANN, for allowing me the time to explore these big issues with my guests and spend some time with my daughters. If you want to get in touch, you can find all our social media links on our website and the link is in the description of the episode. So that's it for If You Were In Charge. I'm Sanam Naraghi Anderlini. See you next time. Bye.