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Kelly Ghaisar The way the laws are written, the way this system works, we don't have any rights. As a citizen, you don't have rights in America. (.....)
Sanam That's Kelly Qayser, my guest this week on If You Were In Charge, with me, Sanam Naraghi Anderlini. Welcome, everyone. The show is brought to you by the Robert Bosch Academy and my organization, ICANN, where for 20 years we've been working with women peacebuilders on stopping wars and violence around the world. Each week, I talk with other doers and imaginers about the tough issues they tackle, from extreme capitalism to biodiversity and Middle East war and peace. And I ask them, what would you do if you were in charge? (.) On this episode, we have another tough issue, police violence and the immunity and impunity that comes with it, especially in America. In 2023, American police shot and killed 1,163 people. But according to Police Violence Report, only 10 officers were arrested and convicted. 2024 has not ended yet, but already they've killed 828 people. My guest is Kelly Qayser, co-founder of the Bijan Qayser Foundation. Kelly became a courageous advocate for ending police impunity after two park police officers shot and killed her son, Bijan, on the Georgetown Parkway in Washington, D.C. in 2017. (.)
Kelly Ghaisar He drove away and they shot him 10 times. And we lost Bijan. They murdered my son, these police officers.
Sanam I'm having these conversations because I get exhausted hearing pundits analyze problems but offering no solutions. So when I meet brilliant, caring people who are tackling those problems, I want others to know about them too. And talking to my twin daughters, it's clear we owe their generation some answers. (.) In a moment, the incredible Kelly Qayser on facing the U.S. police and justice system. But first, like I plan to do every week, I'll get a reality check from Sole, who's back at Cambridge, busy trying to solve plastic pollution. (......) So, good morning. How are you doing this morning? (..)
Soleh Good, you know, in Cambridge.
Sanam How are your bacteria doing at the lab? (.) Alive, give or take. No pink ones, no green ones, huh?
Soleh Nope. Just yellow. (..)
Sanam We'll say hi to them. Listen, today's podcast is about police reform. You know, growing up in D.C., what were the kinds of things that you guys experienced? And again, from a generational standpoint, when you think about police, what are the issues that you think about? And, you know, what do you think would be interesting to hear about from Kelly?
Soleh Because I think in the U.S., you're taught to, like, be scared of the police, that the police are not your friends. You know, okay, maybe they're supposed to keep you safe and whatever, but the police are not friendly, generally, especially not in a city. And I think one of the, like, depressing things in the States is that it's so commonplace that it's quite rare for anybody to kind of take notice of any of the, like, casual police violence that happens all the time. Like, in Kelly's son's case, you know, if she hadn't brought attention to it, it could have been swept under the rug. So I think that's kind of one of the scary parts about the U.S. is that, like, you're just another example that nobody's doing anything about. And then I think the whole, like, not carrying guns, carrying guns thing, like, versus carrying guns is a huge one. Like, we were at one of the big, like, Gaza protests in London. I was, I mean, first of all, just, like, big crowds growing up in the States already. I'm, like, slightly on edge, you know. I was expecting, like, huge police presence, kind of similar to what you would find in D.C. or Boston or whatever it is. The police that were there seemed like they were just mostly, like, patrolling and blocking off the streets. It wasn't this, like, confrontational nature that you often find in, like, American protests. Like, when we went to the Black Lives Matter protests in D.C. and there were just, like, barriers of police, like, fully armed. The difference was quite stark to me.
Sanam I know that, I remember the Black Lives Matter, um, the, on the streets that you guys would go to school and come back and, you know, we would walk on weekends. All of a sudden, there were these guys with bizarre insignia, like, skull, skull and bones and, and no names. //S01: And, you know.// Texas Prison Guard or whatever. //S01: Exactly.// And, and then the guns, I mean, it was literally, like, the kinds of guns and, and weaponry that you would see in a war zone. Even the, even their trucks and things. It was, like, these Humvees that were, you know, militarized. But the other part of it that I found interesting was that we could go right up to them, like, you know. //S01: Yeah, we could. And you were.//
Soleh And me and Lydia were, like, freaking out. Because we're, like, why are you going up to this person? (..)
Sanam I wanted to have discipline they were. //S01: No sense of self-preservation.//
Soleh Clearly, they're not disciplined. Like, look at the records. (..)
Sanam Well, you know, I was curious about the level of discipline. (.) So, you know, being six feet, or not six feet, six inches, you know, from their face, just saying hello and just seeing whether they would respond in any way, which, of course, they didn't. And then the other thing that I found really interesting was I was looking at their uniform and the brands that they were wearing. And it was, like, there was a, you know, North Face belt and the boots and the, you know, it was just all these, this kind of brand, normal high street. Brands. (.) And I, and I couldn't understand whether these are sort of standard supply that they get or, you know, are these companies in cahoots with them? I, it was kind of, I was just sort of looking to see, you know, what, what information can we gather from who the hell they are?
Soleh Quite ominous and like almost dystopic looking groups of policemen that seem to just kind of all be there just to be there.
Sanam Just to descend on this, remembering that from 2020, and then the student protests across the country during Gaza for, you know, last, last term, it really was sort of a bit of trauma in terms of, you know, recalling that what equipment they have and, and what they could do. And, and I just, you know, I just wonder what's happening, you know, how it's going to play out over the next few months.
Soleh The student protests are even quite interesting because campus police are kind of their own thing. Like, yes, they're official police. So they talk to like the city, city of Cambridge, whatever police. But at the end of the day, they are controlled by the university. So like the university could have said, don't shut down the encampment and the police wouldn't have, wouldn't have been able to do that, right? So I don't know, those kinds of weird, the encampments are also just a strange thing because it's like these weird like turf wars. (.) These like tiny police forces suddenly have all this power.
Sanam You know, as a parent, I would assume that if I'm sending my child to university and there's campus police, the role of the, the job, if you want, the primary job of the campus police is to be providing a degree of protection to my, yeah, to the students, to the young people, right? I was kind of relieved that you guys weren't there, but at the same time, really feeling it for the, for, for all the kids that are still there and the young kids that are going that the next, you know, new, new freshmen that are going in in terms of what they're, what they'll be faced with. Okay. Thanks so much. That's, that's great. Talk to you later. (......) John, welcome to the show. Thank you, Sana. Thank you for having me. We are talking today about issues of police violence and police reform. And I'm thinking about it in the context of both what we saw in the United States and in England around the student encampments on the campuses vis-a-vis the Gaza demonstrations and protests in the UK. We've had right-wing protests and the police kind of pushing back against, against kind of that kind of violence. And then in the US, this pervasive issue of police violence, I was looking at some of the statistics and 2023 was, was a year. where 1,232 people were killed by the police in the U.S. That's about three people a day. For you, where does the story start and why, why, how did you get involved in, in this issue?
Kelly Ghaisar In November 17th, 2017, my 25-year-old son, Bijan, he was driving on GW Parkway and somebody hit him from behind. and, uh, it was a gab. And, uh, left over. And, uh, there is no place to pull over on GW, so he drove away. Obviously, he wasn't, um, at fault for the accident. The person who hit him was, uh, the person who was actually cited for this collision, and the police followed him with, uh, guns drawn. And on the first stop, they pulled their gun and they banged on his window with their gun. They kicked his tires. And my son was anti-violence, anti-war, anti-gun human being. And he drove away. And finally, they shot him 10 times. And we lost Bijan. They murdered my son, these police officers. Everything they did from the beginning was against their policies. They just wanted to stop him because he drove away when they pointed at him with their guns. Anyways, this was 2017. This November will be seven years. We have held many, many, many demonstrations fighting the police reform. And asking for justice for Bijan, which justice to us was for these officers to be indicted and finally put in jail, which we weren't able to do that because a federal judge dismissed the criminal case on the basis of qualified immunity for police officers.
Sanam What was your life? What were you doing before this incident took you down this path and this tragedy? What was your life about?
Kelly Ghaisar Like? Well, Bijan was 25. He was my youngest. And I had a 28-year-old daughter who just had got married. (.) So we had the best experience of our lives just a few months before this happened to Bijan. We happened to live right outside Washington, D.C. We love where we live. And we have amazing life, amazing children, both graduated college. My husband had his own CPA firm. I am an interior designer. And we, you know, older, father who just had... I also had a great experience with the parents after pretty much all of our hard work, carpooling, taking them to sports events, and prom, and moving around during college, and all that was done. Our kids were settled. We were happy. (.) And life was good. (.) Life was very good, Sana. And then life was not good after. It's never been good after.
Sanam And when you think about the last seven years, I mean, as an interior designer and, as you say, as a husband who was a CPA and everything being perfect, did you have any idea of what this other side of the world was? Like, it's almost like this portal opens and you're suddenly seeing the world from a different lens or perspective.
Kelly Ghaisar Is that how it feels for you sometimes? Absolutely. I mean, I always say we were in our own bubble. I mean, we knew about these things, but we just never assumed, imagined, expected to be affected by this injustice, which is police brutality. And then the injustice that you get by not having the accountability. These two officers that shot Bijan, they both had many complaints against them and they were never disciplined. Just let's go back to what you asked me. Yeah, we had no idea of this world and what this meant. But now this is my world and this is my fight. This is my purpose because I just feel like this has to end. (..) The fact that police officers in America feel like they can get away killing 25-year-old accountant for a crime he didn't commit and get away with it. And actually, these officers have been on paid leave for almost seven years.
Sanam They're on, they're getting paid.
Kelly Ghaisar And they're sitting at home.
Sanam And is there ever going to be a chance of getting them into court and into jail?
Kelly Ghaisar If the qualified immunity is abolished and turned over, then, you know, yes, there would be a chance to prosecute them again. But at the moment, no.
Sanam Explain what qualified immunity is because I think a lot of people don't even know that this exists.
Kelly Ghaisar Yeah, qualified immunity is that police officers, especially federal police officers, FBI agents, federal police officers, and these officers that shot Bijan, they are part police officers. They exist in San Francisco, New York City, and Washington, D.C.
Sanam Because in Washington, we're not a state, so we don't have state police.
Kelly Ghaisar So their job is primarily guarding and taking care of the security around the national monuments. So they are treated as federal agents. So their qualified immunity goes way higher. It's almost equivalent to the FBI agents.
Sanam So, so, so, so, and, and it means that when they're on the job, if they're, if they're on working hours and they commit what would be a crime for you, me, and anybody else. //S00: Yes, yes.// They, they have automatic.
Kelly Ghaisar Immunity. Yes. They have full immunity. Although you can indict them, but because they are federal police officers, uh, they are federal employees. their case goes to a federal court, which is resided by a federal judge.
Sanam Like one of, effectively one of their own, one of their own, like a colleague, right? Exactly.
Kelly Ghaisar And then most cases in a federal court that's against the federal government is 99.9% dismissed by the judge because this is the federal court. You are fighting the government. So the way the laws are written, the way this system works, there's almost, as I always say, we don't have any rights. We have no rights. When it comes to the federal government, as a citizen, you don't have rights in America. This is barbaric. It is not democratic. To me, it's a banana republic.
Sanam This is amazing because, so here you are living your, this, as you say, this bubble, this perfect life, um, you're Iranian American, uh, we know from, from, you know, we know what a banana republic and a bad regime looks like, you know, somewhere else we, you know, and, and you think that in America things, there is the rule of law.
Kelly Ghaisar Yes, yes. When it comes to police brutality, when it comes to police violence and how, uh, they are not only protected in their trainings, they are encouraged to defend themselves. What are you defending yourself from? (.) We are not at a war with our citizens. I mean, it is a traffic incident. (.) I really have a problem with calling our police officers in America law enforcement. If you don't know the law, if you don't know the law, how can you enforce the law? (.) The fact that this chase was unlawful, shooting at a moving vehicle, stopping your car in front of the car with your guns drawn for a traffic violation, these are all against policy. But even though all of these exists, they still do it, they do it, they do it day after day, because they feel like they are able to, because they have immunity, because they have immunity, and it's just mind blowing. I mean, I knew there was a problem, but I didn't know how bad it was, and I didn't know how powerful the police are, until we started fighting for justice for Bijan. I mean, they can literally get away with everything.
Sanam So did you, you know, sometimes I think that living in America is, it's like a snow globe, but the ceiling is really high, so most of us don't feel the edges of where the democracy, the limits of democracy are, the democracy that they claim. For you, for you, for you, you hit that glass ceiling, right? Did you, have you been, has, has the experience been that the system worked with you and, and responded to you, or has it been that, you know, you felt harassed or gaslighted? Like, what were the sort of various stages of, of experience that you've had dealing with, trying to, trying to find out what happened that night?
Kelly Ghaisar Yeah, the system did not work for, for us. From the very beginning, after Bijan was shot, very high-level officers from the park police were called in to the scene. They put these two officers in a car together, which is against any policy or law, to put two people who have committed shooting, crime, whatever, in the same car. They wrote an email to the hospital, where they took Bijan, telling the hospital faculty that we could not visit or touch him. (.) And during our civil case, during the depositions, this officer was deposed, and our lawyers asked him about it. Why, what, why would you do that? What was that, was this policy? Well, he said, I don't know.
Sanam I just don't like it.
Kelly Ghaisar He was like, yeah, we just didn't want anyone. You know why, Sanam? Because we were Iranian-American. (.) They thought we were going to go and make a scene. They profiled Bijan, because his license plate was Bijan. These two well-known racist officers, they loved to harass and chase this guy.
Sanam They had a history of racism. They had a history of racism.
Kelly Ghaisar Yes, absolutely, absolutely. This was a case of racism from the beginning till now. And then they would not disclose the names of the officers until a year and a half later, which, through our civil case, a judge ruled that they had to, Department of Interior and the Park Police had to disclose these officers' names. Because, as he put it, my court does not recognize John Doe's. We need names. That's how we had their names.
Sanam A year and a half later, they killed our son. (..)
Kelly Ghaisar They insulted and pained my family by putting these restrictions on seeing, obviously, we made such a big deal. And the lawyers, the hospital lawyers, had to get involved and fight this and let us visit Bijan. And this whole thing was unnecessary. This human being was in a coma. (.) And I just hate saying these things. He was totally brain dead. And them to make this... I mean, it's like, talk about cruelty. (.) Talk about abusing power. And talk about getting away with all these things. (..) And, yeah. (.) No, they were not. They were not cooperative. They were... No. They did everything. Till this day, they are not disclosing the findings from FBI. (.) Washington Post just sued the government for Bijan's case. They said they are going to give them the documents, little by little, until year 2029. And the first batch that they were given is all... (.) I mean, it's like there's nothing to read. There's nothing. So what are they hiding? And why are they allowed? How are they allowed? There's no accountability. There's no oversight. (.)
Sanam It's so shocking, right? Because, again, we wouldn't have known. You wouldn't have known this. We wouldn't have known this if you hadn't had this horrible experience.
Kelly Ghaisar Yeah.
Sanam So you were able to set up the Bijan Gheysar Foundation. What does the foundation... What are you doing specifically on a day-to-day basis? How have you got engaged in this fight against police immunity and impunity?
Kelly Ghaisar Yeah. Well, after this happened to Bijan, the Department of Justice was investigating this case with the FBI, and they did not give us any time of how long this is going to take. We didn't know what is happening, what happened, what is going on. So the only way we could get any kind of information was to sue the government through a civil case. That was the only... And we got a lot of information through that, like the deposition that I was talking to you about. Oh, my God. Many, many depositions through the civil case. So our first goal for suing the government was to get any kind of information that they wouldn't let us have. When we sued the government, at the same time, we started Bijan Gheysar Foundation. And we made it public, and we held a press conference saying, if the civil case comes down to anything, and any finding comes out of the civil case, whatever monetary funds would go to the foundation. We wanted everyone and ourselves and the government to know that we're not suing the government because we want to get money because of what happened to our son. It was just a way of accountability. accountability, and the funds would go to this foundation that we would be helping anti-gun organizations and also police brutality victims. And we work with these different organizations that we kind of piggyback on them, that we're supporting them monetarily.
Sanam Has it changed your sort of social environment and the people that you engage with? How has that happened?
Kelly Ghaisar Oh, my God. Oh, my God. I mean, I feel like I always say, uh, Bijan has brought angels in my path. It's like every day. And I meet people that I, I wish that this wasn't the cause or the reason why I do what I do. And I meet the people that I do. But the amount of substance, humanity, courage, and the people that I meet. And I meet and what they do, and yeah, I meet a lot of amazing people, politicians that have fought our fight. It means the world to me. And it means the world to me when I really see that there is hope, that there are politicians that do care. Also, as far as activists, mothers against police brutality, they blow my mind with the work that they do. They are based in Texas, they are based in Texas, Dallas, Texas, we also work with Avalon Foundation, which was founded by Niazeh Kastravi, and she was a member of NAACP, which she's a Iranian American woman, a petite, little, beautiful, elegant woman, which, oh my God. But every time I tell her when I meet her that had this not happened to me, I would not have imagined anyone like her fighting this fight.
Sanam I was talking to my daughter, Sola, the other day, and she grew up in the Washington, D.C. area, and she said, you know, the police is not, when you see a policeman, you don't think of them as someone who's going to give you protection. You don't think, it doesn't make you feel safe, right? And then I think about our own childhood, and somewhere in the back of my mind is this thing that, oh, if you get lost, you go to the police, you know, you approach a policeman, right?
Kelly Ghaisar Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Sanam It's such a disparity, right, in terms of how we perceive and understand the police as a member of the society, as a, you know, are they serving us or are they not? As you say, you know, what are they enforcing and for whom are they enforcing it? It's such a disconnect between what we imagine that they should be and what they are. And I'm just wondering, for you right now, when we're watching the student protests and the police entering campuses, how did that make you feel? I mean, what was your reaction to that, to seeing that kind of violence against peaceful protesters, largely speaking? (..)
Kelly Ghaisar It breaks my heart. It makes me angry. I just feel like, I feel like the biggest asset that we have as Americans is our free speech. And the fact that they are taking away these students' rights for free speech, and as we know, not only in America, all over the world, young people express their frustration towards the system by demonstrations. And the fact that the faculty and students are thrown on the ground, stepped on and handcuffed because they are protesting against a war, I'm so sad. I'm just so sad about it.
Sanam Yeah, to me, one of the things as I was watching it and worrying about what's going to happen next is that it also felt that it was almost as if displaced trauma from 9-11. So, you know, what the police, especially in New York, encountered after 9-11, 24 years ago, they're now sort of taking at their trauma against this generation of kids. And many of them, of course, were, you know, Palestinian-American, Arab-American and others, including, of course, Jewish-American kids, but who weren't even born in 9-11 and are protesting. But it's as if it's as if it's as if the trauma is just being carried and the kids are being punished for no reason whatsoever. (..) It's hard to watch. The foundation, as you said, is supporting other organizations and you're doing advocacy. The big question that I ask everyone is if you are in charge. So if you could change things to make sure that police violence is mitigated and disappears as much as possible.
Kelly Ghaisar My lifelong goal until I'm living is to abolish qualified immunity in U.S. I feel like it is this law has to go away, has to stop.
Sanam If you were a billionaire, if you were one of the people out there in America who have more money than they know what to do with, how would you engage on these issues? What would you do?
Kelly Ghaisar I would definitely support politicians, lawmakers that run for office that are anti-police violence and anti-gun violence.
Sanam Right. So you would come up against the National Rifle Association, the NRA. Exactly.
Kelly Ghaisar If we were in a country with so many guns in the hands of our people, then maybe our police officers wouldn't need to carry guns. Like, it is the Wild Wild West with so much guns. And President Biden's administration, one of the things that they did from the beginning was they pretty much evacuated the NRA office in the White House. They had an office at the White House.
Sanam Wow. Wow.
Kelly Ghaisar And they have replaced it with an office of gun violence prevention. And I feel like these are little things that he has done that not too many people know about it. And I'm very grateful for this.
Sanam That's really interesting. I mean, again, when you think about it from the context outside the U.S., the idea that a gun lobby would have an office in the presidency of the United States is kind of strange. //S00: Yes.// But yeah, absolutely. And then, Kelly John, one last question. When you look at this universe and the last seven years and what lays ahead, what gives you hope? (...)
Kelly Ghaisar Young people. (..) Young people. (.) I'm hoping that they have the wisdom, the knowledge, and the courage to change the things that need to be changed. (..)
Sanam Well, thank you. Thank you, my. Thank you so much. (..) This is an Africa Digital Audio production. My executive producer is Pierce Lynch, and it contains original music by Little Monster Media. Remember, you can catch a new episode of If You Were In Charge every Tuesday. A huge thanks from me to the Bosch Academy for making these conversations possible, and to my own organization, ICANN, for allowing me the time to explore these big issues with my guests and spend some time with my daughters. If you want to get in touch, you can find all our social media links on our website, and the link is in the description of the episode. So that's it for If You Were In Charge. I'm Sanna Amnaragi-Angelini. See you next time. Bye.